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Why are some Labour voters in denial about JCs endorsement of party wide anti-Semitism

281 replies

Rainbowhairdontcare · 30/10/2019 12:00

I'm in a tactical vote group on FB. There was a fairly civilised discussion about JC when I said as a Jew I can't vote for him, nor any of the members of the small community where we live.

Then I got told off for buying the "fear mongering biased media".

I've read and heard what he's said. As a Jew I can clearly see it as anti-Semitism. It baffles me that people are still in denial about it.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 10/11/2019 23:56

I do know that I don't believe for second you really give a shit about antisemitism

Just because you don’t, it doesn’t mean that everyone doesn’t.

you just want something to beat Corbyn/Labour with

That’s all you’re left with, isn’t it. Because you can’t actually dispute what I’ve posted. You’ve tried to call it antisemitic and that hasn’t worked so now I’m just using it to ‘smear Corbyn’.

If I really was so keen to beat Labour, I wouldn’t be starting threads slating the Tories would I?

Go home, you’ve brought a spoon to a knife fight.

ArseDarkly · 11/11/2019 00:16

Just because you don’t, it doesn’t mean that everyone doesn’t.

How puerile. Clearly you missed my post earlier in the thread where i said I was Jewish? So, yes, antisemitism matters a lot to me. I know what it looks like and feels like and I know that I don't see it with Corbyn.

If I really was so keen to beat Labour, I wouldn’t be starting threads slating the Tories would I?

equally puerile - maybe you're a lib dem voter? Who cares? how would I know what threads you're starting?

Go home, you’ve brought a spoon to a knife fight
Well quite. You're in this for the fight as I said above - to stick that knife into Corbyn any way you can, however fake the justification.

noblegiraffe · 11/11/2019 00:26

So, yes, antisemitism matters a lot to me.

Unless it’s by Corbyn supporters? You seem deeply unconcerned about Dr Alex Scott-Samuel, for example, choosing instead to attack me for bringing up his behaviour.

ThatsMeInTheSpotlight · 11/11/2019 09:24

arse and Willow if your intention was to defend Corbyn and the Labour party, you may want to reconsider your approach. We'd moved on to discussing the failings of all parties and you brought it full circle.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 11/11/2019 10:55

The problem I have here is that I don't believe that the party of Boris "watermelon smiles" Johnson isn't anti-semitic either. It's my personal observation (your milage may vary) that people who say the kinds of thing Johnson has said about ethnic minorities (or elect a man who has said such things as their party leader) are certainly no more respectful when it comes to Jews. I bet cracks about Shylock (and that was anti-semitic) are ten-a-penny within the conservative party echelons, except none of the members within earshot find it offensive enough to tell the press afterwards.

Green party and Lib-Dem party supporters might very well be entitled to judge the labour party. I don't think the right-wing press give a fuck about Jews though, and that's not why they're covering the issue.

sergeantmajor · 11/11/2019 13:34

Corbyn's leadership has coincided in a frightening rise in antisemitic attacks in the UK. These include desecration of Jewish graves and places of worship, as well as attacks in person.

I don't speak for every Jewish person, but many of those I know have asked themselves a question which we never thought we would ask: where would we go if it was no longer safe to remain here? This is a British minority community who has lived here for generations and who now has started to feel seriously unsafe. It is a horrible, nauseating feeling.

The values of the person in power sets the tone for the country, as we've seen in Trump's America. UK synagogues rarely have visible signage and are patrolled by police on festivals. I rarely volunteer the information that I am Jewish irl. I was so sad on the day I realised that my sons were removing their kippot (skull caps) when walking home through our high street. They had picked up on the menace without my mentioning it.

Yes, there is nasty bigotry in the Tory party and elsewhere, however I feel the specific problems with Corbyn are (a) antisemitic acts, not just words, such as laying wreaths of the graves of Jew-murdering terrorists, and (b) allowing racists to feel welcome in his party whilst hounding out Jewish MPs.

I don't believe that can be said for the other mainstream parties, but even if it could, it wouldn't make it any better.

I also notice that much of the Corbyn issues relate to Jew-hatred, with no reference to Israel, so I am surprised to see Israel and Palestine mentioned so much on this thread. Corbyn is entitled to be pro Palestine if he wishes but that wouldn't explain his other troubling words and actions.

Jews are a tiny minority in Britain, so there is barely a single constituency where they are electorally significant. Amongst all the issues that this country faces, I wonder how far up the agenda racism comes?

SophiaLarsen · 11/11/2019 13:50

I am astounded that some of the opinion on here is that anti-semitism is subjective. Anti-semitism is institutionalised in the Labour Party. It is abhorrent. I cannot believe that after the horrors of the Holocaust, people still behave in a way to marginalise Jewish people. It's such pointless activity.

The creation of Israel is full of mistakes and errors which has led to terrible terrible wars. Jews are not to blame for this. American and British Statesmen from 70 years ago and their successors's actions are to blame.

I believe it is totally possible to support a 2 state system and denounce poor treatment of Palestinians without being anti-Semitic. Unfortunately JC's actions and in-actions are anti-Semitic in this area.

Willowcat77 · 11/11/2019 13:55

@ThatsMeinTheSpotlight Maybe Mumsnet should rename the thread to cover all the Political parties? This would make it sound less biased and inflammatory, especially in this period before the General Election. Not everyone has the time to read a long thread from beginning to end.

As previously stated, the gov.uk research has proved antisemitism exists in all parties, but there is more of it on the right.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 11/11/2019 14:34

sergeantmajor I completely agree with you that attitudes at the top shape the country. It's definitely become a much more hostile environment in the UK. Did hate-crime against Jews follow a different pattern to attacks on other vulnerable groups, or a similar pattern? Hate crime against multiple minorities went up in 2016, after the Brexit referendum. I do not say that all Brexiters are racist, but most of the racists did vote for Brexit. The narrow win left them feeling empowered.

Was it actually as early as 2015 when Corbyn became leader of the opposition party?

At this point, something is rotten within the state of the UK. I don't know how we make it feel safe again.

joanneg36 · 11/11/2019 15:13

To the earlier poster who asked how people who aren't voting Labour are voting: I am voting Lib Dem in a Lib/Lab marginal, but if I lived in a Lab/Con marginal, I would vote Conservative without hesitation, and I say that as a lifelong Labour voter who hates the Tories so...

Labour are no longer run by democratic left-wing politicians. Here's a strong piece on Seumas Milne, Corbyn's right-hand man, for those who think use of the term 'Stalinist' is extreme:

foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/09/dont-underestimate-corbyns-pet-stalinist/

joanneg36 · 11/11/2019 15:21

@Willowcat77 - yes of course, antisemitism (and all racism) exists in all parties. That is not the issue here. The issue is that the Labour Party is currently institutionally anti-semitic and there are anti-semites in key leadership positions. A different thing entirely.

@JustAnotherPoster00 - you have provided a long list of Corbyn's activity in standing up against Neo-Nazis which is great, and no-one is disputing. I have no doubt that he can recognise anti-semitism in its traditional 'far right' form. The issue here is with left antisemitism, which people find harder to recognise because it often masquerades as 'just standing up for the Palestinians' and morphs into something much uglier. But, as has been covered earlier in this thread, it is perfectly possible to criticise the Israeli government without being anti-Semitic. Corbyn and his ilk cannot manage it. Two books which look at this phenomenon in more detail if anyone is really interested are: Contemporary Left Antisemitism by David Hirsh and The Left's Jewish Problem by Dave Rich. Both Hirsh and Rich are very much from the left (Hirsh was a Labour Party member and activist until he resigned earlier this year).

SirVixofVixHall · 11/11/2019 16:13

I also agree that there is a rise in blatant anti-semitism.
I cried after seeing the facebook posts yesterday.

Gingernaut · 11/11/2019 16:19

Why?

Because they may not have seen it themselves and if they didn't see it, then it didn't happen.

Because Tories must leave and that means voting for JC

Because they don't care, Labour must win at any and all cost

Because antisemitism is so ingrained, they simply don't recognise it

sergeantmajor · 12/11/2019 09:52

We may really want a Labour government.
We may really support Labour's policies.
We may really trust that most Labour party members and MPs are decent people with good values.
We may know that Labour has a long history fighting injustice in society.
We may agree that racism exists throughout society, in all parties
BUT!
NONE of that has a bearing on whether Corbyn's Labour party now has an unprecedented issue with antisemitism - which it does. It is the only party investigated by the EHRC.

Boris Johnson's words show him to be a shameless bigot but nonetheless he has promoted people like Sajid Javid, in a way that sends a positive message to ethnic minorities, not hounded them out.

The long list of Corbyn's racist words, associates and actions makes frightening reading, as they precipitate violence and acts of hate. I will not forgive him making me and my family feel this fear and for subjecting us to danger.

Helmetbymidnight · 12/11/2019 10:14

this is a racist govt- thats what windrush was all about. the home office is sending people back to places they havent lived for fifty/sixty year- the hostile environment is v much in place.

make no mistake, johnson, farage (blatant anti-semitism on record) cummings, jrm are no friends to jewish people.

i remain unconvinced that corbyn in charge is an actual threat to british jews- i cant quite get my head around that - but ive never liked the fella so he wont be getting my vote.

sergeantmajor · 12/11/2019 14:17

Not looking for friends for the jewish people @Helmetbymidnight , just working out degrees of threat.

Yes, Windrush stank of racism, but when revealed there was outrage and resignations. The only people leaving Labour are Jewish MPs (pushed out) and a few supportive colleagues (e.g. Ian Austin). No outrage from the top, not even excuses.

I make no defence of right wing racism, but left wing racism is just as ugly, has a hypocritical pious front and goes right to the top.

Not sure why you find the threat so unconvincing? Extra security around Jewish MPs at their own party's conference, ffs? A spike in anti-Jewish hate crime since Corbyn came in?

Helmetbymidnight · 12/11/2019 14:42

Mm.

Ben Elton said he won't let a few hooligans keep him from the game he loves - eg. he's sticking with Labour.

For me, what has convinced me to stay away from Labour at this time, has probably been the very vehement denial of anti-semitism from Labour members - That pisses me off. I guess we'd all far prefer a ...'ok we're listening' rather than the 'you Jews don't know the difference between anti-semitism and anti-Israel' schtick.
Its like when you go to a school and they say 'there is no bullying here' - better if they say, 'we deal with bullying' rather than cover it up.

sergeantmajor · 12/11/2019 16:35

Yes, I agree @Helmetbymidnight. They have a problem, they need to acknowledge it and deal with it, rather than blame the target of the hate.

I accept it is a real conflict for passionate Labour supporters to criticise their own party and leader, especially at election time. At other times they could say they are fighting the problem from within, but at election time they are actively campaigning to put someone they know to be hostile to a vulnerable ethnic minority in power. I couldn't sleep easy with that myself.

derxa · 12/11/2019 21:02

Ben Elton said he won't let a few hooligans keep him from the game he loves - eg. he's sticking with Labour. Doesn't he live in Australia?

noblegiraffe · 12/11/2019 21:16

Good to see those Tories were immediately suspended. Horrific comments.

Willowcat77 · 12/11/2019 21:51

Strange how little coverage Tory islamophobia and anti-semitism gets though...

sergeantmajor · 13/11/2019 11:03

Do you mean strange how little coverage Tory islamophobia gets compared to antisemitism, @Willowcat77?

If antisemitism gets more coverage now it's probably because while Tory racists are suspended, Labour racists are promoted.

NB I'm not defending racism on either side, just observing the difference in the response to the issue.

FastAway · 13/11/2019 11:07

This discussion isn’t about the Tories and Islamophobia though. It’s about Labour and anti-semitism.

Whataboutery.

Willowcat77 · 13/11/2019 12:13

@sergeantmajor No, I said strange how little coverage Tory islamophobia and anti-semitism gets. Please don't misquote me.