Why are some Labour voters in denial about JCs endorsement of party wide anti-Semitism

[Rainbowhairdontcare]

I'm in a tactical vote group on FB. There was a fairly civilised discussion about JC when I said as a Jew I can't vote for him, nor any of the members of the small community where we live.

Then I got told off for buying the "fear mongering biased media".

I've read and heard what he's said. As a Jew I can clearly see it as anti-Semitism. It baffles me that people are still in denial about it.

More detail here on the various vile behaviour of Chris Williamson:

www.theredroar.com/2019/02/why-labour-were-right-to-suspend-chris-williamson-and-why-he-shouldnt-be-allowed-back/

Basically, just type ‘Labour anti-Semitism’ into google and you’ll find chapter and verse on all of it. It’s been going on since Corbyn took over in 2015 and is getting worse by the day.

The Israel thing is not ‘complicated’ or ‘nuanced’ and pretending it is, is just a cover for racism.

Criticising the actions of the Israeli government: absolutely fine as it would be for any other country’s government.

Calling Jews ‘zionazis’, implying that Israel ‘controls’ sections of the British media or indeed anything else, using the term ‘Zionist’ as an offensive insult, comparing Israeli Jews to Nazis: not absolutely fine and in fact antisemitic.

Hope we’re all clear now?

if I can even convince a few people not to vote Labour in this election, it will have been worth it.

Crystal clear

I’m not quite done yet! 😉 When Labour anti-semitism comes up, people often throw back Boris’s comments about Piccaninnies and letter boxes. I don’t disagree that these are awful remarks. But the situation is not comparable for the following reason:

The accusation is not only/specifically that Jezza himself is an anti-Semite. He may be, or he may not, just like Boris may be a racist or he may not. I can’t see into either of their heads so I don’t know.

The problem in the Labour Party is that it has become institutionally anti-Semitic. This is why it is currently being investigated by the EHRC. There is a very clear explanation of what ‘institutional antisemitism’ is here and it’s far more serious than Jezza doing and saying a few dodgy things:

twitter.com/maajidnawaz/status/1192479519929774082?s=21

It’s a long thread, but worth reading if you want to understand the issue, rather than just going ‘yeah but what about the Torres?’

Also: I fully understand if you don’t want to vote Conservative. But don’t vote Labour.

And one last one, on ‘where is the evidence for Corbyn’s own bad behaviour’? This here is a fairly comprehensive list:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1169283105821249536.html

Show me a party that isn't racist and misogynistic, then I will take more notice

The problem in the Labour Party is that it has become institutionally anti-Semitic. This is why it is currently being investigated by the EHRC

The EHRC investigation, which is still ongoing, will presumably decide if the Labour Party is 'institutionally anti-semitic'. Nothing you have posted (or will post) can establish that.

By your reasoning , the Tory Party must be 'institutionally anti-islamic' as they are also being investigated by the EHRC. But I don't believe for a minute that they are either.

By the way, you do realise that there are Jewish Labour MP's standing don't you? Are you telling people not to vote for them?

@noblegiraffe - why don't you be a bit more specific? Why not name and shame, to help us default Labour supporters understand?

If you are posting the truth and it is already out there on the internet then I don't see what Mumsnet are going to do to you personally? They'll hardly ban you!

Yes, I am telling people not to vote for them, unless they consider ending up with Corbyn as PM to be an acceptable outcome.

I can fully understand the Jewish MPs who want to stay and fight for the party they love. But the battle is lost, and they are (albeit for good-hearted reasons) helping Corbyn to become PM.

Did you actually read the thread I shared above on the meaning of ‘institutional racism’? If so, I’d be interested to know which part of it you disagree with.

Also, please don’t feel you need to respond with any ‘but what about the Tory party?’ I need no convincing on what is wrong with the Tory party, especially right now. I’ve been a Labour voter my entire life and I’ve even canvassed and campaigned for them. The fact that there isn’t a better Labour Party to defeat the Tories right now is part of the tragedy of all of this.

No, I didn't read the thread you shared, having made the mistake of clicking on your first link and finding it took me to some trashy website. I have no intention of clicking on a link to anything by Maajid Nawaz.

Nawaz has an obsessive hatred of Corbyn specifically and Labour generally. Unlike Corbyn, Nawaz was once a member of an extreme islamist anti-semitic group. He spent 5 years in prison for this membership. He later renounced all this but has gone from one extreme to the other where Labour are concerned.

I can fully understand the Jewish MPs who want to stay and fight for the party they love. But the battle is lost, and they are (albeit for good-hearted reasons) helping Corbyn to become PM

How nauseatingly patronising.

Fair enough. I’m happy to point you to exactly the same evidence and arguments shared in more respectable broadsheet publications, and by people you might like more than Nawaz, if that would help to change your mind, but I suspect it won’t, so let’s agree to disagree.

I’m sorry if you find me nauseatingly patronising, so you should maybe look for another Jewish person whose style of argument you find more acceptable? 87% of us are terrified of a Corbyn government, so hopefully if you won’t listen to me, someone else will have greater success.... over and out.

let’s agree to disagree

Translation - I've lost the argument

I’m sorry if you find me nauseatingly patronising, so you should maybe look for another Jewish person whose style of argument you find more acceptable?

If you'll look at my post earlier in the thread you will see that I am of Jewish heritage myself so I won't have to look far!

87% of us are terrified of a Corbyn government What is your source for this statistic?

My source is the Jewish Chronicle poll of Oct 2018, and the much more recent Survation poll which also states 47% will leave the country if Corbyn is elected PM.

By ‘let’s agree to disagree’ I didn’t mean I’d lost the argument, I meant: I will clearly never convince you and vice versa so let’s both do something nicer with our Friday evenings.

Trust me, if Corbyn gets elected and it turns out you are right and I am wrong, I will be astonished but also thoroughly delighted.

I just honestly find it baffling how he hasn't stood down, if he cared about his party he absolutely would; it's quite clear how a lot of people feel about him, even Labour supporters.

My source is the Jewish Chronicle poll of Oct 2018, and the much more recent Survation poll which also states 47% will leave the country if Corbyn is elected PM.

Are you trying to tell me the Jewish Chronicle Tory rag have surveyed every Jew in the country?? And Survation? Well no one's surveyed me or my extended family..odd that

@Nextphonewontbesamsung
Name and shame what?

If you need more details about who Corbyn has hung out with and what he has said and done, this is quite thorough:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1169283105821249536.html

Lowlights:
“In 2011, #Corbyn wrote a gushing forward for an antisemitic book that claims capitalism is controlled "by men of a single and peculiar race, who have behind them many centuries of financial experience" and blames "the house of Rothschild" for European wars. Really.”

“In 2013, Corbyn (not for the first time) attended an event organized by Holocaust-denier Paul Eisen. Corbyn had supported Eisen's organization for years. Eisen had been open about his anti-Jewish views since at least 2004, and in 2008 praised Holocaust denial as "honorable." ”

Do you not understand how polling works, @ArseDarkly?

Polls never survey every person in the country - it’s a poll? Ie a representative sample of opinion. Are you suggesting that the JC poll falsified its results/only asked Tory voters?

And is the Survation poll also a Tory one and/or the 47% of Jews who are saying they will leave, all Tories?

I understand you are Jewish and like Jeremy Corbyn, but I don’t understand the point in pretending this is anything other than a small minority view?

Yes I do, that's why I never take any notice of them, like other sensible people

Makes sense. Let’s reconvene on 13 December when we can look at actual voting results in heavily Jewish areas.