I am so worried that I can't think straight anymore.

[outofthemoon]

DS 26 graduated 5 years ago, has worked 18months as a paralegal since, chucked it to go travelling. Rents a room in Manchester but spends most time with us. Just signs on. Has many strong opinions, says I'm autistic (but perhaps he is) has no relationships, few friends, drives. Is not all bad. But it's driving my dd (22) away and why won't he work. He does a bit of agency bar work but not much, and looks so scruffy I'm not surprised. I am worried sick that when i die my poor dd will have to take him on. He has overshadowed much of her life.

It can't be much worse. It's been so bad. He has taken my car keys saying I'm not fit to drive. he loaded up the dog and took her away and kept her locked in the boot while he rang the police and said we were harrassing him when we followed to get her back. The police talked him through it like we were the enemy saying 'don't make eye contact with them.' There has been nightmare after nightmare and yet if we treat him like a child, we took him to see the Lion King, he loved it and was lovely. Oh god I know we sound mad and need help.

Sorry have just seen your dh's post. While it is great he is going to stop the enabling, I think inviting your son to stay for weekends ATM is not the right thing to do because he keeps abusing your hospitality. There needs to be a clear break during which your son lives by himself say for six months without visiting and looks after himself. He needs to know you are serious! Arrange to speak to him for half an hour once a week if that makes you feel better. Or your dh meets him for a coffee weekly outside the home. You both have to get tougher for your son's same as much as your own.

If you are worried he is living in his car then you need to go to Manchester and check out where he is actually living. Is your DS a habitual liar? What is your DD planning to do when she comes home? If the uni town she is in is better for securing a job from, could you help her to stay there (financially)?

I think you and your DH need to talk long and hard and get advice from NA, MInd, GP, Frank etc about how to handle any drug taking/MH issues your DS may have. The GP can't treat your son through you but he/she can discuss with you where/how you might access help such as local support groups for carers. I think the poster upthread who said you need to decide what you want your own life to be like is right. You and your DH need to discuss your red lines and set boundaries and then communicate these to your DS. If he wants to stay with you he needs to abide by your rules. You need tot ake a hard and what can often be distressing look at how you might be enabling your son.

A structured day is useful. e.g. if he wants to stay he needs to get up at x time, take dog for a walk, put bins out/do laundry/clean bathroom etc. No drugs etc Look for voluntary work/courses to take etc so that he can get new referees. Apply for 2 jobs per day . You will have to keep on top of it all enforcing the structure and he will baulk at it but you need to take deep breaths, not get suckered into arguing and brave it out. He can leave or he can stay, obeying the house rules. He needs to know you mean business, show weakness and it will collapse. Basically you will have tot reat him like a recalcitrant child because he is not behaving like an adult, he needs training, Do praise him when he does soething kind or something well.

I know you asked for success stories, what would that look like to you?
This opting out of life is a big issue in Japan:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori

How much do you think drug taking is to blame in your DS's case?

And that he thinks it's good for him to have us in the background.

It isn't.
In fact t is the WORST thing you can do for your son. DH is still thinking from an enabling mindset.

PP above recommended Lundy Bancroft.
I heartily agree - you will find tremendous relief just by reading this astonishingly well written & authoratitve book.
It's called "Why does he do that? Inside the minds of angry & controlling men".
That's what you have squatting in your house. Never mind that he is your son. This is also what he is. You need to get educated, & you need to live your lives in peaceful enjoyment of your own home.
You CANNOT change you son. You can only change how you deal with him.

Here's the link again - www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000Q9J0RO/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&tag=mumsnetforu03-21

I have locked him out before once. He prowled for hours around the house.

Let him prowl.
Let him get a police record.
Let that affect his work opportunities.
Let ALL OF THAT GO.

You are overthinking, & still trying to manage outcomes for an adult son. Take the focus off what will happen to him, & on to what is happening to you. You need to disengage, you need your home back, & he needs to be back in Manchester with only his own resources to sustain him.

Yes I agree. Mussolini. DH doesn't. he wants no rows at almost any cost. That's why I think I may have to leave and i hate it. I'm 60. I can't go into a house share. And my lovely dog and my garden and the home I worked for. I hate it all and I am broken broken brokenbroken

Gosh OP, the more you divulge, it is clear he is bullying you. Taking your keys and telling you that you are not fit to drive? He is a controlling you and you and your DH need to be far more robust in dealing with him. What did your DH do when he took your keys? Why can’t any of you stand up to him? If it was a stranger behaving like this, or a boyfriend of your DDs, surely you wouldn’t just sit back and let them get on with it?

It doesn’t always work to have no rows. My DH doesn’t like rowing, but sometimes it is necessary to stand up for yourself by raising your voice. He needs to see you’re not a walkover. I don’t think your DH is being very supportive.

Oh ffs, it is not autism. It is a cluster b personality disorder. Most likely narcissistic personality disorder. And all this 'insecurity' is just part of the act. He isn't mentally I'll, he is just an abusive shit.

Unless you stop pandering to him, you'll never be free. Teach your daughter by setting an example. Kick him out, change the locks and don't give her a key either. If she takes him in that's up to her, she will have to learn on her own time what he is and how to deal with it. You are by responsible for her choices. But you are for your own. Stop letting him stay in your home and abuse you.

He cant change. You can.

Your DH doesn't want rows but your son is stealing your car, locking the dog in the boot, and calling the police on you? This is nuts! It's gone way beyond rows. He needs a restraining order.

@outofthemoon

Thank you for your kind thoughts of potential distress for me but I am fine talking about this with you. In my case it was a husband. I understand you feel it's harder with a son, but that's because you are failing to see him as an adult - & a capable one at that.

It wasn't easy.
But it was necessary.

OP's DH - if you think you situation is solvable without a row happening, you need a harsh reality check. Is it actually the case that you would rather your suffering wife left, & had to set up another home without you, than put up with a row?

If so, you need to adult up & start acting like a parent & a husband.
Read the Lundy Bancroft book FFS.
Whether it is a partner or a son is irrelevant. You have a "Angry & Controlling Man" living in your home against your wishes. You are allowing him to destroy your, your wife's, & your daughter's mental health.

If you feel I am being unpleasant I truly apologise - but FOR CRYING OUT LOUD MAN look what your DS did to your dog.
Your poor dog. Your poor wife. Your poor daughter.
Poor you too. But you know that thing your son did to your dog? That's just the start of it. That was his response to being locked out of YOUR home - to kidnap your defenceless pet, lock him in a boot, & call the police with a barrowload of lies about you.
Are you prepared to let this escalate any further, just because you don't want a row?
Are you prepared to let DS manipulate you again by threatening your dog (btw - whether harm came to dog or not is irrelevant, DS did it to frighten you. Next time he will do worse.)

FFS stop faffing about. Join NA - www.nar-anon.org/ & start talking to people who have lived your experience & come out the other side.

What you need to STOP doing is wanting your son to behave as any parent would wish.
What you need to START doing is modifying your own behaviours, because you will not change your son whatever you try. You can only change you, & how you deal with him.
Fellow NA members will help you with that.

I am welling up about your dog, & the implications for further threat to your household. Start taking charge & protecting them.

I would advise enrolling in the Freedom Programme. That should give the support and clarify to make the changes, that you need to

freedomprogramme.co.uk/

If you continue to allow this what will happen to your son when you are too old to be of any use to him, if you don't make him stand on his own two feet now he will never develop the skills required to do so, he will always be an angry lost Peter Pan
It is in his long-term best interests for you to stand up to him and stop him from exploiting you.

I know a man who has done this to his parents, they will die soon and without them no one will help him, he is now such a revolting toxic person that no one wants to be anywhere near him, they have all seen the way that he has treated his parents and no one will have anything to do with him, the three of them are all just rotting together in a living hell

Actually now I can think of another man, another wayward son he was abusive towards his mother, when she died he just rotted away
You have got to stop enabling this
Someone mentioned the hikikomori, I thought of that but these Japanese men typically are much more passive afaik, I suppose things play out differently in different cultures

I have emailed the freedom programme, thank you. I can't find a NAR meeting within 25miles. I will order the book when I can although it frightens me reading these things. Because I had hope that he was just in a prolonged grim adolescent rebellion.

I can't find a NAR meeting within 25miles.

That's inconvenient - but do the travel.
For goodness sake nothing will change until you change.
Change involves discomfort, & inconvenient travel is the least of your worries.

If reading these things is frightening experiencing the consequences of not dealing with this problem is going to be much worse
You have to face up to what's going on here

DS is still part of the family but he needs to know that he must behave respectfully towards other family members. If he isn't willing to do this then don't engage with him.

I recommend only meeting in public places where you can walk away if he disrespects you. Once his behaviour improves you can invite him home for a meal and if he behaves well then he can come over more often for meals. If he continues to behave then an overnight stay. But none of this if he can't be respectful. It doesn't mean you're not there for him, it means that he needs to engage with you constructively and respectfully to get your support.

Tell him that you love him but need him to treat you with respect and thus he will not be welcome in the family home for a period of time but that you are happy for him to contact you and meet up elsewhere. If he shouts at you just say I love you but I am not willing to be shouted at. And walk away.

All healthy relationships need boundaries.

There doesn't have to be rows dh, just holding boundaries. I don't feel you are on the same page as outofthemoon. Less talk not more

no nar meeting within 100 miles of me.
Have read every link. He fits all the internet diagnosis nacissistic etc. But does that mean he is ill and can't help how he behaves?
And how do I deal with it? He spends lots of time diagnosing me, but accepts no problems for himself.
Dh is just not understanding how bad I feel. Nor that some of the things I have told you about happened more than a year ago. And I have not moved on. i think his head is a bit in the sand.

No. He isnt Ill. Would it be easier to think if him as a psychopath? Because it is along those lines. They arent ill - they just aren't like us. Narcissists are predators and we are like sheep to them.

You need to start taking responsibility for letting him treat you this way, not shifting that responsibility onto your husband. You need to start taking the steps to but distance between you and create boundaries that he cannot walk over.

There are good youtubers about NPD abuse. Try Melanie Tonia Evans.

He won't accept he has a problem. And even if he did, it isn't one anyone can fix. He is exactly who he is meant to be. Unfortunately, that, is a shit human being who is cruel, manipulative, exploitative and down right nasty.

Realistically, the best thing to do would be to cut him from your life entirely. But I get that as a mother you may never be ready to do that. But you need to find the strength to stop allowing him in your house. At all. You need to find the strength to stop looking for normal human reasons for his rotten behaviour, you need to take responsibility for enforcing your boundaries regardless of what husband or daughter think.

Side note: might also be worth googling 'narcissistic smirk' too as you have mentioned something that sounds like it.

Funily enough just cane accross 'is my adult child a narcissist'?' by Melanie Tonia Evans on YouTube. Might be a good start.

But does that mean he is ill and can't help how he behaves?

You're determined to find a reason to continue enabling him, aren't you. I expect it's really hard to accept that this is your son. He isn't going to get 'better'

Narcissists do well in business I believe. So, if that is his issue, he can at least take care of himself, when he needs to

Sounds like the rest of your family will be destroyed though

He won't accept he has a problem because, from his own perspective, he doesn't have a problem. He has a lifestyle that suits him, parents who smooth his way in life and, if he doesn't get his own way he knows exactly how to get you all to toe the line and to do as he says.
Why on earth would he want or need to engage with a process that may result in him having to change?
It is much, much simpler for him to carry on as things are, so what if you are all unhappy? He has already told you that is your problem not his.