I am so worried that I can't think straight anymore.

[outofthemoon]

DS 26 graduated 5 years ago, has worked 18months as a paralegal since, chucked it to go travelling. Rents a room in Manchester but spends most time with us. Just signs on. Has many strong opinions, says I'm autistic (but perhaps he is) has no relationships, few friends, drives. Is not all bad. But it's driving my dd (22) away and why won't he work. He does a bit of agency bar work but not much, and looks so scruffy I'm not surprised. I am worried sick that when i die my poor dd will have to take him on. He has overshadowed much of her life.

This man is being abusive towards you.
Yes he probably needs some help to get himself together but you are not the person to help him because he is domineering and abusive towards you.
This situation is crushing you and it is enabling him, it is bad for both of you

Sorry to hear about this.

Did he do an undergrad law degree then go straight to work as a paralegal? Or did he do the LPC but then not secure a training contract?

I think you and dd need to have a joint plan so he can’t play you off against each other.

He should move out into some sort of house share, the other housemates wouldn't put up with his behaviour like you do and he would have to shape up.
he is manipulating you to get an easy life for himself, he doesn't care about you, why should you care about him?

It sounds time like he has opted out of work. His arrogance and bossiness at home is due to his low self esteem. I knew someone who sounded remarkably similar. His arrogance was astounding, as was his manipulation etc. He also thought that he was better than most in the workplace due to his intelligence and degree (which is transpired, he never finished, but still lied about). You clearly cannot control him. Not your daughter. If she choses to pick up your slack, so be it! If she has to do it for a long period of time, she may soon tire of it. Just do what you need to do. Do eat out, don't do much for him. Invite others round to stay so that his bed is taken from time to time. If he shows up, use it as an excuse to get away for a few days. When you say that you've tried everything, perhaps the problem is that you've not stuck it out for a very long time. You're not going to get quick results. You're going to need to play the long game here!

What is his sleep pattern like? You mentioned he is scruffy, does he generally neglect himself?

Some of his behaviour sounds like it could be the prodromal stage of schizophrenia, but if it has been very long lasting then it could be something else completely.

I agree you need to set your own boundaries and take care of your own needs.

I’m with Hypatia. When you make the change and stop enabling him, you have to involve her in that discussion and ensure she is fully on board.

I had a lot pf problems with my eldest son and my cut off point was always that I would not tolerate him in my house if it was detrimental in any way to his younger siblings.

You are being manipulated. You can already see you are going to lose your daughter. You have to put boundaries in place and stick to them.

You say you called the police before and then say that they took him to his druggy friends, as if that means you shouldn’t call the police again. I would say.... the police took him where he wanted to go, and that was somewhere that left me safe.

Think about it this way. Who told you the police took him there? Did he tell you? Why do you think he told you?

If he told you himself, he’s trying to manipulate you into not calling the police again. He’s trying to make you think that if you set boundaries and enforce them, that you will make him worse.

But you are not making him anything. He is an adult, and if he chooses to do something, then the consequences are his to live with.

He has you so far down the rabbit hole that you can’t see it.

Have you tried counselling for yourself? Stop trying to fix him. You can’t. He has to fix himself... or not... But the only way he will is if you stop enabling him to stay as he is.

First paragraph... you have to have your daughter on board when you go to tough love. Apart from anything else, this will demonstrate to her how to behave appropriately towards abusive men.

You are coming across obsessed with your DD and how you are going to lose her if she doesn’t move back in with you. Lots of 22 year olds move away from family after graduation and then they marry sometimes etc. it is like you just want to sort DS out to keep her with you. You are coming across very intense imo

The paralegal qualification lapses after 12 months and he hated it and say he never will again.

I was trying to make the point that you can do other jobs with this qualification eg customs work (many jobs to become available in this area post Brexit).

Or could he do a conversion degree and retrain while working pt?

Obviously, neither suggestion any good if he is not willing. But at 26 yrs, this is no longer your responsibility. You can offer encouragement but no other concrete help. You need to step back and respond to any complaints with "this is your responsibility now". Repeat ad infinitum.

I agree about inviting others to stay btw!

He has been scruffy ever since he got too old for me to get his hair cut and sort him out. Years and years. I think it is teenage rebellion at age 26.
I only have his word that he did the paralegal training. He does lie, to himself as well as me.
I don't know about schizophrenia. i do know he is consistently stubborn.
I will stop enabling.
Yes, i agree about dominating at home and low self esteem other places.
He is in a houseshare, but he doesn't have much contact with the others in it.
He is adamant that he is an independent person living his own life.
I can't change the locks. Dd would not endure it.
I will stop giving him money (but he inherited £3000 very recently). I'm scared he will give up his Manchester room and go travelling and land back on us.
I do love him. And hate him. He does my head in. He can be kind and understanding. And vile.

No, no, Belfield, dd has to come home until she gets a job, but she wants to move and I want her too (and have enough put away to help her with the first few months of rent.) But I don't want ds on her doorstep when she breaks free. She has lots of friends, male and female. I love her having them.

You are coming across obsessed with your DD and how you are going to lose her if she doesn’t move back in with you. Lots of 22 year olds move away from family after graduation and then they marry sometimes etc.
Don't be a bellend @Belfield.
OP has written less about DD than DS, & I'm sure she's aware that DD will soon have a home of her own. That's not the concern. The concern is that DD will either drop out of the family's lives completely because she can no longer cope (she 'pities DS but can hardly bear to hear his name at the moment' - I paraphrase) - or that she will take on the emotional load of DS herself & this destroy her own happiness.

it is like you just want to sort DS out to keep her with you.
No it isn't.
OP doesn't want her daughter controlled & diminished by DS. There isn't a single hint of wanting to smother or 'keep' her.

You are coming across very intense imo
ODFOD - try living with this pile of steaming shit until you reach breaking point & have to dump your emotional overload on an internet forum.
Then come back & tell us all how it left you cool as a cucumber.

I will stop giving him money (but he inherited £3000 very recently). I'm scared he will give up his Manchester room and go travelling and land back on us.

The inheritance is excellent news! It will give him a bit of a cushion while you withdraw and he establishes his own independence.

And it is your choice whether he lands back on you, not his! You need to make this very clear before he leaves (if he leaves) that it's not an option. And get a lodger! Tell him you need the money as you have given him so much financial support of late! Also, you and your dh must present a united front. Your dh needs to step up and get on board. Good luck op. It does all sound really really hard. I hope you can get yourself some support too x

Next time he goes back to Manchester ring him and explain that you can't have him back home as your mental health can't take it anymore. You are changing the locks and he is only welcome to visit when he has changed his attitude, seen a a GP as he looks ill, and started looking for a job. Tell him you love him but will not tolerate his behaviour any longer and having brought him up well into adulthood you also owe him nothing.

And stick to it!

Belfield, I know you are sticking up for dd and thank you, but it's not like that. She has lived away these last 3 years, I love her being independent. I am so proud of her moving from a tiny village to London and managing so brilliantly with everything that goes on at home. I don't want her trapped with me.

Thank you all. I can't talk about this at work. It's unprofessional. My friends have had enough of it. My mum is way too old. I have been so lonely. You have helped. I will stop enabling. I will still love him though.

He is adamant that he is an independent person living his own life.
So now he gets to live it. Ship him out, Don't wait til 1st Sept as per some suggestions upthread. He doesn't need notice, he has a home of his own.

I can't change the locks. Dd would not endure it.
OP - I genuinely feel for you & can only imagine your level of claustauphobic despair right now. It is so hard to make changes in the teeth of inransigent behaviour from aloved one but you have an abusive man living in your home & the fact that he is your son does not change that.
I am going to be awfully blunt & please to not feel that I am trying to churt your feelings but ...

IT IS TIME TO STEP UP & BE A PARENT.
It is not up to your DD whether you change the locks or not. Stop projecting your own feelings about this or second-guessing hers. It is not her choice. See posts upthread about getting her on board.
This is part & parcel of demonstrating to her that she need not tolerate this behaviour from men (or anyone, but young women need this role modelled to them specifically abour men).

(but he inherited £3000 very recently). I'm scared he will give up his Manchester room and go travelling and land back on us.
Let him.
What's the difference?
You've already committed to the fact that he's not going to be livig with you anymore, aren't you? So if you can commit to that now, you can continue to commit to it anytime in future.
It is within your power - & remit as a parent - to never allow him to "land" on you again.

He looks ill, but he ran the Manchester marathon (for charity) in quite good time. I won't get him to a gp, I know that. But I will try much harder.

I had a brother the very epitome of this.

He abused me very seriously throughout my childhood and got away with it.

I had years of watching my parents cycle around his crazy and expecting me to suck it up.

I am no contact with the lot of them now. If you genuinely care about your DD I'd suggest speaking with her openly about how his behaviour has affected her as well as you.

My family had this same situation. In the end the daughter left home and refuses all contact with her brother. He is autistic but refuses to accept any help. Very clever man but delusional. Thinks he is the next Richard Branson but does not leave his room and smokes dope all day. His mother terrified that he will kill himself so gives into him all the time.
Until they accept help there is nothing you can do. Tough love is heartbreaking but it may be all you can do. Send him back to Manchester, change your locks and tell him you will see him by appointment.

*Next time he goes back to Manchester ring him and explain that you can't have him back home as your mental health can't take it anymore. You are changing the locks and he is only welcome to visit when he has changed his attitude, seen a a GP as he looks ill, and started looking for a job. Tell him you love him but will not tolerate his behaviour any longer and having brought him up well into adulthood you also owe him nothing.

And stick to it!*

THIS ^

She says she had a happy childhood, she seemed happy until teenage years, when she became stroppy and more insecure. I took good care of her, I believe. I was human shield. I'm not saying it was perfect but I think she has always seen the best side of ds because I shielded her from the worst, and that's why she still wants to look after him now. For instance, if I changed the locks she would give him a key.

Then you need a serious discussion with your daughter that if she enables him like that she is making the situation worse for him, you and herself, if you can't trust her not to give him a key then don't give her one either. It is your home and property, take back your ownership instead of being controlled bu your kids

OP would you consider getting some professional help yourself? The thing is, you cant change him, you cant change your daughter or your dh, the only person you have control over is yourself. But you are so caught up, you cant see how manipulative your son is being. You talk like you're in a abusive relationship- we can all see it clear as day but you talk yourself out of our solutions. You're worn down and totally manipulated. A counsellor might be able to empower you again - put you back in touch with yourself IUKWIM. The only way this situation can become easier for you is if you empower yourself. Everything seems bleak and 'no use', but there is always a way out, a way of taking back control of your own life. Do it for yourself - not for your ds, dd or dh. It's time for YOU.

can you ask your dh and dd for "help". If you all 'stood together' and stood firm. It sounds though that your ds has you all exactly where HE wants. He is very very VERY manipulated. But as a counsellor said to me once - you can only be controlled and manipulated if you allow it.

I do love him. And hate him.

Yes, I can understand that. Sorry the therapy didn't help.

I agree with Ceci - you're worrying about your kids - natural enough, but you're not giving yourself any consideration and you are unable to care for yourself until you do. Again, get your own safety sorted. Then consider your daughter and son.