I am so worried that I can't think straight anymore.

[outofthemoon]

DS 26 graduated 5 years ago, has worked 18months as a paralegal since, chucked it to go travelling. Rents a room in Manchester but spends most time with us. Just signs on. Has many strong opinions, says I'm autistic (but perhaps he is) has no relationships, few friends, drives. Is not all bad. But it's driving my dd (22) away and why won't he work. He does a bit of agency bar work but not much, and looks so scruffy I'm not surprised. I am worried sick that when i die my poor dd will have to take him on. He has overshadowed much of her life.

For years we have thought that out of the house (not in it) he has low self esteem and confidence with the real world. So we have tried (except when I break and have a tantrum) to boost his self esteem by praising his good things, and listening to his opinions and making him feel better about himself. The opposite of tough, and dd has been at uni and so he has had a lot of 1-2-1. I wish he hadn't been born. He's not happy and our family life is ruined.

This sounds awful but could you bribe him in some way?

Offer him a sum of money if he gets a job and keeps it for a year (and sticks to other conditions like living in his own home)?

Or offer him money to get a proper mental health assessment with a psychiatrist (someone he can't manipulate or deceive)? If he would do this then you would at least know definitively what you were dealing with and could target your response accordingly. Maybe? You could couch it in terms of a career assessment.

Or buy him a trip abroad just to give you breathing space and emphasize that things will be different upon his return. Remove his bedroom door while he is away or rent out the room to a burly policeman! (Only half kidding!)

Anything to jolt him out of this current situation.

I am worried sick that when i die my poor dd will have to take him on.

Then you need to step up right now & make sure this never. ever happens to her.

Start by example.
Tell DS it's time to go home.
When he objects, be clear how unacceptable his behaviour is to you, & that you are no longer tolerating it.
When he shuts himself in his room & refuses to leave, call some burly relatives or even better the police & have him ejected.

You know if you let this continue for any longer that he will end up dominating & terrorising you & DD for the rest of your lives?

So to protect dd I have not been tough with him often.
I appreciate the reasoning behind how you got to here. But it has to stop now.

He has me over a barrel because of dd.
Which is why he CANNOT be allowed to live in the same house as her.
Once she is clear of him, he can no longer manipulate you through her.

I understand that he likely has complex MH issues. But right now you need to protect DD & start giving her incontravertible evidence that it is possible to say NO to DS. That her needs are as important as his.
You need to distance your family home from his influence, & that means he has to go.
His MH can be addressed when he is back in Manchester. Although from your updates it looks like he won't accept that he has a problem.

He does. He has big problems, & I am so sorry for what you are enduring OP. But you have to put your DD first now. As well as yourself.

Low self esteem.and confidence in the real world but happily went off travelling?

He's taking you for a sucker and bleeding the life out of you and the rest of the family

I'm in the same position as your DD, but a bit older. I think my brother is probably worse in terms of behavioural extremes but your post just felt so familiar to read, so many parallels, especially the part about ending up like the girl in love actually, which people said to me too).

I'm now in my thirties and here's what happened with me. I tried for years and eventually cut my brother off completely because I couldn't cope any more with the constant calls, suicide threats, nastiness etc.

I love my mum but I've had to distance myself because she's so entangled with my brother. I moved away, met someone and started a family of my own.

I now can't ever go home because I absolutely won't allow my daughter around my brother because he's so horrible and my mum won't set boundaries on him coming to the house. For the same reason she won't travel much because of (insert his latest drama here) so basically she's a stranger to her granddaughter.

One day, OP, this will be you. A heartbroken daughter who can't have a real relationship with you because your son dominates everything. Maybe in the future some grandkids that you never see because you come as a package with your toxic son and no mother in their right mind would allow children into that environment.
And for what?

You're not helping him. Your son will get worse as long as you are enabling him. He'll keep at it and he'll drive your daughter away.

My mother is so miserable, it breaks my heart and I've watched my brother get worse and worse over the years because he's never known any responsibility or consequences. But equally, I'm not willing to set myself on fire to keep someone else warm. If your daughter is already distancing herself then it sounds like she's learned the same life lesson.

Seriously, OP, I am your ghost of Christmas future here. Don't make the mistakes that my mother made. You will lose your daughter.

I couldn't bribe him. He would sneer at that. Also, I can't afford it. 3 years at uni in London for dd have been very very expensive, and dh is retired on a very small pension. (That ds equates with signing on but it's not, dh worked all his life, with no break). He would never do the mental health assessment, and I think that's partly because he's afraid of what he would find out. I will offer the career assessment though, if I can find out how to arrange that. Thank you.

Warn your DD, and make sure she is uncontactable when you go tough love on him. Tell her to block his number, even if only temporarily. Or even better, get her a new phone number, and take her phone number and keep her phone at home. When he blows her phone up with messages, reply to him that you have DD's phone, and that she is away and uncontactable at the moment. It would be best if he doesn't know where she lives.

He’s very manipulating. None of us asked to be born - we just get on with it. He’s sounds grandiose about himself - he really has low self esteem and obviously has difficulties getting on with others and working with others. Weed can make people paranoid. He’s being a bully - my brother was like this and had paranoid schizophrenia.
You have bent over backwards trying to help him. He doesn’t want it.
It’s time to tell him to go. He is really not going to get better - he will get worse and is and will be a noose around your neck.

Yes, that puzzles me. How can he work festival bars, or go off to Spain for months hostelling if he is so insecure. It doesn't figure. I have done bar work as a student, but I couldn't do that.

he says dd can just do waitressing (she has since she was 15 to help out until she gets a proper job, and I should work harder, and dh retired could look for adult apprentiships.)

Right.
So in his ideal world, the 3 of you work or work harder, to supplement his lifestyle while he signs on & controls the household.

Just lost all sympathy for him. He's behaving like a little shit OP. Please get him out before DD comes home.

You are going to have to put a nuclear bomb into your life OP. You have so emeshed yourself with the Little Emperor that you now need to do something drastic. Nothing else will do if you and your family are going to survive.

How can he work festival bars, or go off to Spain for months hostelling if he is so insecure. It doesn't figure
Because he’s playing you!

So we have tried to boost his self esteem by praising his good things, and listening to his opinions and making him feel better about himself.

My brother was treated like this and now tends to dominate conversation, thinks he knows everything, and has little tolerance for other viewpoints. When he was younger he was quite fun to chat to but now he's quite overbearing. It's all about him and it mustn't be, it's not healthy for him, you or the other family who lose out.

Is he playing me? Consciously? I don't know anything anymore. I am so twisted up inside. I am driven mad. Is he mentally ill, which he can't help, or playing me? I pity him so much. A room in Manchester isn't a home, with no work, it's a cell.

Dd and I get on so well. I love her very much. She talks to me like I never could to my mum. She is kind and brave. I can't bear to lose her. Also, if I dump ds she will try and pick up the slack. She always has.

And I know that nothing is going to change.
No response to anything other than sympathy.
Your son sounds like the epitome of an abusive narcissist.
Classic tell tale sign: triangulation, look that up and you will see how the description fits!

People with low self esteem can sometimes become bullying and dictatorial in their own "domains" to compensate for their lack of effectiveness outside it.

Just pondering op, things may have gone too far for this, but does your son have a paralegal qualification? If so, there may be many jobs becoming available in the regulatory/customs sector as a result of Brexit. Or non-profit organizations sometimes take on paralegals to keep costs down. He may be more suited to a campaigning role?

Do you think there is a possibility that he has a serious drug issue? His gauntness and scruffy appearance and the delusional behaviour might suggest this? Do you know for sure how deeply he is in to the drugs?

He can have a mental illness ( made worse by the weed) AND be playing you. It’s not a case of either/or.

1. You can't help him unless he wants to help himself.
2. He has enough money to survive and has been able to do so in the past. You shouldn't be subsidising his life in any way.
3. He has been able to look after himself when he was away, so clearly can.
4. You need to impress on your dd that her brother is not her responsibility, he is an adult and has shown in the past he can act as such.

He has totally got you running scared, hasn't he? You're so worried about what he might do that he has you wrapped around his little finger. It's time to let go. He needs to move back to his flat - if he wants to live the way he does at the moment, he has his own space to do it in. Stop tolerating it in your home. Tell him he can either stay with you overnight if he gets a job and keeps it, or he can go back to his flat. Change the locks and DO NOT give him a key. Be sure to let him know that since he demands to be treated as an adult, he needs to start behaving like one. (And in my opinion, that includes not barricading himself in a room like a sulky teenager would.) Time for tough love, OP.

No, I don't know about the drugs. He is so secretive. When people say don't do his washing, he would never let me touch his clothes like that. I think the gauntness might be the vegan diet not done properly. The paralegal qualification lapses after 12 months and he hated it and say he never will again.

User. Things will change. I will do if for dd. I have to. I see that.

Stop funding him.
He does not have the right to live with you. If he tries to get in, you can and should call the police. He needs a big wake up call. He can no longer rely on the Bank of mum and dad. You are just perpetuating his little boy lost nonsense.

You are entitled to a nice life. He is a parasite.

Your son sounds like the epitome of an abusive narcissist.

I agree with this. You all need to stop making excuses for him and trying to find reasons for his behaviour. He is manipulating you. Perhaps there is an underlying mental health problem. Perhaps there isn't. It's irrelevant. He is destroying your lives. You need to protect yourselves. Your daughter is the one who needs your support right now. She is just getting ready to go out into the world. He had his time, now it is hers.

Ask your DD not to pick up the slack. Her doing so will undermine all the efforts you make to get him to stand on his own two feet. Explain to her that you're not doing it because you can't cope anymore (and she would therefore think she is helping you by stepping in) but because you want to make sure that your DS learns to stand on his own two feet, as that is what is best for him.

He likes to travel and needs structure....

Would he join the forces? I see someone else has also suggested this.

I pity him so much. A room in Manchester isn't a home, with no work, it's a cell.

Op I think you must harden your heart a little. Pity won't help your son. And a room when you are twenty six year old single man is fine! (I rented a room in a shared house in London until my mid thirties and initially, before I got my "graduate" job - which took nearly three years to find btw - I temped to fund the rent. My parents lived at the other end of the country and had no involvement in this whatsoever and I wouldn't expect them to!) He's a grown man and it is what he has acquired for himself. If he wants more out of life then he will have to go out and earn it!

I pity him so much. A room in Manchester isn't a home, with no work, it's a cell.

^I think you need to remind yourself that he is capable of making his own choices and living with the consequences. He has no job and no friends, but that's the result of his own choices.

The way his life is right now, it's not something that has been foisted on him. It's the way he choses to live.

He has a degree. He has a loving upbringing. He has food, a roof, he isn't disabled or stupid or traumatized. And he is 26!! He is an adult who is choosing to live the way he wants to live. If he really wanted to live differently, he could probably do so quite easily.

So stop feeling sorry for him!!