Please read me if you feel that committing suicide is 'selfish'

[wheresmymojo]

This is slightly a TAAT but I feel it's such an important topic I wanted to start a new thread about it rather than derailing one this has come up on.

A lot of people feel that suicide is 'selfish'. Selfish because of the impact on family left behind, anyone who sees the suicide (if it's in a more public setting) or has to deal with the aftermath and anyone who might be directly involved through no choice of their own (e.g. train drivers).

I completely understand why it seems selfish.

As someone who has been suicidal many times (albeit only one unsuccessful attempt) I just wanted to explain why the person isn't selfish.

Once you get to the state of depression where you are suicidal you are really no longer yourself. You look like you, you talk like you, but you are not you. Your brain has been overcome with chemicals that mean your actions are no longer 'your actions' any more. Your thoughts are no longer 'your thoughts'. Major depression is like an alien has taken over your brain.

It's a long slide (usually) - you become less 'you' and more the 'alien' every day. By the time you're suicidal 'you' have pretty much vacated the building.

You can't see suicide as something negative for your family and friends or the pain that it will cause because all you can see is how much better off they will be without you. In a twisted way you are doing it partly for them, because you feel you're just dragging them down. You're making their life difficult and they'll be so much better off without you.

As for others who may find your body/train drivers/etc....when you are that suicidal you don't really think about them. Not because you're selfish but because the illness makes you have complete tunnel vision. All you can see is your pain and how much you want to die. You are not capable of thinking about the impact on people who might see/deal with the aftermath.

I guess that's the bit I want to make clear....you aren't making a selfish decision not to think about them, you aren't capable of thinking about them.

You're not in charge of your thoughts any more, the illness is and it just wants you to die and it blocks out anything that might make you think twice.

Sorry - this is an essay but I feel it's important to try and get across what it's like. I genuinely feel that by the time I feel suicidal I'm no more 'myself' than someone who has dementia might be 'themselves' just in a different way.

I tried to kill myself at 14 ..can’t be bothered name change it’s no secret.
My life was so bad there felt no other way at the time.
They discharged me from hospital with nothing except a social worker ,who wasn’t even for that issue.
There was no after care.no mental health team.
I certainly wasn’t able to think about how others would feel.i was past that

Really good description of severe depression OP.

I felt like my head was flying to pieces - like at the end of the first Harry Potter film when Voldemort turned slowly in ash as Harry touched him.

I totally felt like me no longer existing would have been doing my family a massive favour.

Now I can see that wasn't the case but at that point there wasn't any Elfride left, only bits of ash of my personality floating away.

Being the Devil's advocate... but that is precisely the definition of "selfish", isn't it? A person who does not think about anybody else.

My dad killed himself 3 years ago. The total devastation and destroyed lives he left behind are difficult to describe. His suffering ended the moment he pulled the trigger. Everyone else's began just then.

So yep, I do think they are selfish. Regardless of the reasons why they don't think about anybody else, well... they don't think about anybody else.

I volunteered for a charity whose aim is to help people considering suicide and from those experiences I learned that someone contemplating suicide genuinely believes their loved ones are better off without them; that they are a drain, they are ruining their family's lives, it will be a relief for family members when they're gone etc. It's heartbreaking - they seem to reach a point where they think they are worthless and the only good thing they can do is not be around anymore.

It was also very apparent how much pain they are in - an overwhelming, all-consuming agony that they can only see one way out of.

I think it's awful that people who attempt or consider suicide on motorways or train lines etc. are sometimes being prosecuted - surely a criminal conviction will make things even bleaker for them?

I don't disagree that the person doing is obviously severely unwell however it is ultimately a selfish act that only 'improves' things for that individual. The devastation it leaves behind for others (both strangers and family) is terrible. It's very sad that so many people get to that point ☹️

I 100% agree OP. When you are that unwell you aren't capable of being selfish

I have tried to kill myself when very unwell. After the first time someone had a go at me for being selfish. The only thing I heard was "so that's more evidence that everyone would be better off without me. They don't even like me - they are just angry that my stupid messed up brain is intruding into their lives. The best thing I can do is be more thorough next time so they don't need to deal with my drama". I really thought I was thinking of them first in trying to die. Selfish was sticking around, making them visit me in hospital, find the cash to help me when I couldn't pay my rent, listen to me cry. Just fucking up their lives with my presence.

I wince so much every time I hear people say that suicide is selfish. I really worry that for some people being told another reason why they are bad will tip them over the edge.

Its defined as a selfish act because you are only concerned about you and your suffering no one else I really dont see another way of defining it and yes I have tried to kill myself yes I'm a long term person with depression or whatever the hell I'm supposed to call myself these days I still think its selfish

I think the term "selfish" is appropriate for some when you consider there are a number of ways in which somebody can end their life. Yes the suicide will affect family and friends regardless of method; but jumping in front of a train also impacts the train driver/staff and the entire train-worth of passengers, and potentially more trains which cannot run for hours afterwards.

I am fortunate enough to have no relevant experience, but confining myself to the language issue it seems to me that part of the problem is that the word “selfish” (however defined in the dictionary) has connotations of moral censure and criticism.

We don’t have (or do we?) a good adjective to describe the subjective state of having “tunnel vision” described by OP, but without the moral angle which is inappropriate for somebody who has suffered a total or near-total loss of self and perspective due to MH issues.

My sympathies to everyone affected by these issues.

My father also killed himself and I don't consider him to have been selfish. It's oxymoronic to expect that someone distressed enough to commit suicide was simultaneously capable of making rational judgements about the impact of it.

Thank you for your post, OP.

I totally agree with you op.

I can understand how you would feel that family/friends would be better off without someone in their lives, but I cannot understand why you involve someone else, such as a train/car driver.

I cannot imagine how you would feel as a car/train driver if someone used you in this way.

I cannot understand why you involve someone else, such as a train/car driver.

Because you’re desperately unwell?

When you are depressed your thoughts are so bleak that you are convinced that the world would be better without you, so the idea of not distressing others is turned on its head. You believe you are doing them a favour.

I agree OP, but I don't think anyone in the other thread meant the person was being selfish,more the act has a massive impact on others so it's a 'selfish' act.

I

@Purple I understand that people are unwell, but why would you want to inflict that on someone else. I had a family member who crashed his car deliberately, the driver of the other car could not come to terms with it.

I know someone who attempted suicide who told me that the thought process was just "I don't want to feel like this anymore, if I take lots of tablets I won't have to feel this way" rather than "I want to die."

I know someone else who attempted suicide, who said the faulty thinking caused by depression had convinced them that it was honestly the best thing for their family if they died.

By the way OP you might be interested that advice now is not to use the word "committed" in regards to suicide. I genuinely don't say this to criticise you - I'm only thinking that as someone who clearly has a lot of empathy towards people with MH problems, you would probably be interested.

Oh aurynne ☹️😪

I understand that people are unwell, but why would you want to inflict that on someone else

Because the person is so ill they have stopped thinking about anyone else and just want to end how they are feeling.

It's not selfish. Only a rational, healthy mind (yet one without much empathy or consideration) would use that logic. It's safe to say that a suicidal person isn't in this 'normal' state of mind. Dying isn't a self-indulgent 'fuck you' to everyone else like many people seem to think. It's not a good place to be. It isn't selfish.
Most people can't understand why one would 'choose' to affect other people in a horrific way, then again most people cannot understand why anyone would 'want' to be hit by a train. It's an illness.
I think being dead and having died so brutally or being a family devastated by a loved one's death is bad enough without having your/your loved one's character assassinated also.

I agree op.
Someone so desperately unwell is incapable of worrying about whether they’re being selfish or not.

I understand that people are unwell, but why would you want to inflict that on someone else?

You’re not understanding how unwell someone has to be to stand in front of a train.

It is dreadful way to lose a family member, you always blame yourself - what you could have done, should have done. And sometimes, yes, it does feel selfish, especially as you watch two teenage boys growing up without their father - it is very very difficult.

I think the term "selfish" is appropriate for some when you consider there are a number of ways in which somebody can end their life. Yes the suicide will affect family and friends regardless of method; but jumping in front of a train also impacts the train driver/staff and the entire train-worth of passengers, and potentially more trains which cannot run for hours afterwards
I think this proves the OP's point Perhaps the poster should read the whole opening post where OP explains how the suicidal person can't see further than their desire to die and isn't actually making a choice. Yes it's a bugger for the people waiting for trains but at least they'll still be getting up the next day and catching another train, the person who's thrown themselves under a train won't. They couldn't see a way out through the fog that took over in their head, and they couldn't drag themselves out of the quicksand that was dragging them down.
It's only selfish in the strictest most technical sense of the word. Heartbreaking would be more appropriate.