Please read me if you feel that committing suicide is 'selfish'

[wheresmymojo]

This is slightly a TAAT but I feel it's such an important topic I wanted to start a new thread about it rather than derailing one this has come up on.

A lot of people feel that suicide is 'selfish'. Selfish because of the impact on family left behind, anyone who sees the suicide (if it's in a more public setting) or has to deal with the aftermath and anyone who might be directly involved through no choice of their own (e.g. train drivers).

I completely understand why it seems selfish.

As someone who has been suicidal many times (albeit only one unsuccessful attempt) I just wanted to explain why the person isn't selfish.

Once you get to the state of depression where you are suicidal you are really no longer yourself. You look like you, you talk like you, but you are not you. Your brain has been overcome with chemicals that mean your actions are no longer 'your actions' any more. Your thoughts are no longer 'your thoughts'. Major depression is like an alien has taken over your brain.

It's a long slide (usually) - you become less 'you' and more the 'alien' every day. By the time you're suicidal 'you' have pretty much vacated the building.

You can't see suicide as something negative for your family and friends or the pain that it will cause because all you can see is how much better off they will be without you. In a twisted way you are doing it partly for them, because you feel you're just dragging them down. You're making their life difficult and they'll be so much better off without you.

As for others who may find your body/train drivers/etc....when you are that suicidal you don't really think about them. Not because you're selfish but because the illness makes you have complete tunnel vision. All you can see is your pain and how much you want to die. You are not capable of thinking about the impact on people who might see/deal with the aftermath.

I guess that's the bit I want to make clear....you aren't making a selfish decision not to think about them, you aren't capable of thinking about them.

You're not in charge of your thoughts any more, the illness is and it just wants you to die and it blocks out anything that might make you think twice.

Sorry - this is an essay but I feel it's important to try and get across what it's like. I genuinely feel that by the time I feel suicidal I'm no more 'myself' than someone who has dementia might be 'themselves' just in a different way.

If you are feeling suicidal and that's what has made you click on this, I want you to know that your life has value as it is. It's not just the pipe dream of what you will be like when you get better that has value, but the person you are now and whetever state you are in now. You matter.
My belief is that you matter to a loving God who cherishes you. I know many don't agree, that's fine, I don't say it to argue, but to help someone who may need to know.

I think what this post has shown me is how little understanding there truly is of mental illness. So many posts basically saying "I don't understand why someone in the grips of severe mental illness can't take the time to work through a sane and logical thought process, think about how their actions are logically going to affect other people and then act in a socially reasonable fashion".

As if the inability to do that isn't a major symptom of being unwell!

If you are feeling suicidal and that's what has made you click on this, I want you to know that your life has value as it is. It's not just the pipe dream of what you will be like when you get better that has value, but the person you are now and whetever state you are in now.

Well, currently the primary message I'm getting from this thread is that I'm a horrible selfish person who's illness makes me a massive drain on those around me for not thinking of them enough and not being in control enough of myself to just be happy like a normal person.

It's actually been a really distressing thread to read.

You’re not understanding how unwell someone has to be to stand in front of a train.

I agree BUT is everyone though? There seems to be an understanding that every single person who kills themselves or attempts to is severely depressed or otherwise mental ill. Are they all though? Can people get to the point they just feel they’ve had enough? Just a pondering really.

It happens too often every day there seems to be something in the news about someone taking their own life, it’s so sad and just too common

This has been hard reading. I promise when I was suicidal I couldn’t think about anything else. Maybe I am selfish as I have children but the pain I felt/feel is real. My diagnosis is complex ptsd and thanks to previous people ruining my life I’m stuck here between a rock and a hard place

When are some people on this thread actually going to realise when you're that unwell you are incapable of rational thought therefore incapable of being selfish.

I had horrendous PND, every single day I wanted to walk under a bus. I was so unwell that I actually thought the best thing to do would be to push DS's buggy under a bus first as I thought he couldn't live without me (he was merely weeks old). So killing him and me was the solution that made most sense. I'm horrified that I felt like this, but surely it demonstrates how disordered the mind is when you're that unwell?

When I was very ill with PND (hospitalised) I went to jump in front of a train. The reason was that it was absolutely certain. No stomach pumping, or finding me and saving me. I needed it done.

When I am well enough to consider the train driver or anyone else, then my team would consider it only ideation. As in I'm not likely to carry it out. If I'm not able to consider that then I need sectioning for my own safety.

Most women who die by suicide in perinatal period do so by quite violent means. Women usually kill themselves 'more gently' but in the maternity period is often bridges, trains etc.

If you think it's selfish, then you don't understand the level of illness.

I feel the word "commit" doesn't help. It makes it feel like it's still viewed as a crime or a sin. Like there's some sort of element of control over it. There isn't.

Such a distressing thread. For anyone feeling like they are going to do this please reach out to someone if you can. I have been there myself and my heart aches for you.

My view has changed with me just reading the posts here. I've had severe mental illness and have contemplated suicide several times. You get to a point where you are not capable of reasoning that others may suffer your loss afterwards. But that's the selfish part I guess - that others will suffer your loss. People usually consider suicide when all else is lost and you get into a frame of mind where you can see any other way out.

I think it depends what perspective you are viewing it from. As someone whose boyfriend attempted suicide (unsuccessfully, but it was very close), I was really scared about being judged (maybe I wouldn’t these days, as there is more awareness, but there have also been criminal cases about people who have driven a person to suicide which is a recent development and why I also feel uneasy about the vilification off Jeremy Kyle - you really can’t control what someone else can do). The whole situation contributed to my own problems (which I have never seen anyone about and I am not going to make an armchair diagnosis of myself), so yes, I feel on a (selfish) level that it is selfish, but I suppose I also have some insight into how bad it must have been for him.

Also, I was told not to speak about it in case of adverse media coverage.

Banhaha the advice from the Samaritans and other similar charitable organisations is to avoid using "commit" in relation to suicide - and instead to use "died by suicide" or similar non-judgemental language.

I came on here to say if anyone here thinks everyone is better off without you, your kids are never better off. They are precious cargo and you are the most important person in their lives, no matter what everyone else is doing or how anyone else has treated you. Be kind to yourself.

That's it entirely. A person becomes so unwell and unbearably burdened by their own state of mind that any other consideration simply is not anywhere in their thinking. It's horrible - I've been there. I have since heard many true stories as to how people are affected such as family, and those others like car drivers and train drivers. That's why there is no complete solution as to "is it selfish?".

No it isn't selfish. What is selfish is being part of a society that choses to underfund mental health care.

I'm just hanging on due to having dh and the dcs. I have an advance directive and, if I become seriously ill, I'll refuse treatment. I think about suicide constantly and there is no help out there. I hope all you people who condemn people like me are suitably pleased that I'm still here and not inconveniencing anyone by jumping ship.

An uncomfortable truth is that not everyone has close family or friends whose lives they are part of. Some people have no one to turn to, or they just aren't close, or they have abusive families and trouble forming good relationships with other people as a result.

Some folks have nobody close to support them when they are still alive. It is very sad but it is the truth.

If someone like that suicides, many times their family are of course going to be shocked and upset, no matter how the relationships have drifted or how bitter the arguments were.

But the reality is - the dead person cannot stay alive just so that a bunch of random people feel ok. The dead person doesn't owe distant family ANYTHING, in my opinion. They are not selfish.

Everyone has to live for themselves, not just to exist in terrible pain to ensure others feel ok - especially others who might care in theory but don't actually put boots on the ground to support a very depressed relative. We all have to find their own meaning in live. I think a good supportive family (blood relatives or friends) can gently help some folks find their way back to a life worth living, but not everyone has that. And of course no matter how supportive the family, sometimes that doesn't work either. It's nobody's fault.

I really don't have the stomach to call people selfish, people who are so frightened and alone in the world and in so much pain they can find no sliver of hope.

Another uncomfortable truth is that even if people have the best love and care and support possible, years of therapy, drug treatments, listening ears, sympathy, empathy and everything else going ... some still choose to end their life. I think that's fine if they don't want to try to "get better" any more.

I also think it's ok for their loved ones to feel they have been selfish.

In all the tragedy of severe depression and suicide, I don't think the feeling that some loved ones feel (eg. well that was a bit selfish along with all the other feelings) is significant really. I mean, look at what's happened!

Agreed - I did say sometimes no matter how much support, it still happens, and I don't think it's anyone's 'fault'.

I guess what I was driving at is in my opinion, when we're talking about severe long term mental health issues over years with crisis after crisis - the majority of people in this situation have a fairly shaky support system left by the point they suicide.

The trope of the 'selfish suicide' assumes an awful lot of things about family dynamics and relationships that simply aren't true for a lot of people experiencing complicated and enduring mental health problems.

@chocolateworshipper yes that is the language I try to use- others use commit though and I think it can perpetuate the idea that it is selfish. People who commit crimes and sins could be seen as selfish. I don't think it should be used in the context of suicide which imo is not selfish or a crime or a sin.

Today 15:29 wheresmymojo - I'm so sorry you are living with this - I know it's a cliche response but have you sought help? thank you. I am genuinely pleased that your mental health has improved enough for you to feel a positive change. I feel so much for you, and hope your improvement continues.

I have had some help but the last time I plucked up courage to ask my GP for help he said "this is outside my scope of expertise". I say and waited for the next sentence and none came so I walked out. I finally heard I could self refer to IAPT and am having ACT which feels hopeful.

I do not believe that everyone who has chosen the end their life is so depressed they do not have the capacity to understand the impact on others

I believe the majority can’t contemplate the impact on family/friends as they are too depressed

But not everyone some people are selfish throughout their lives and make the choice

Bil certainly did he didn’t want to not be the man he once was even though he had two sons he could no longer play women like he did he was honest about this being a father wasn't as important to him

He was always always selfish and abusive he didn’t have that power and even in his death he punished people

Haven't read whole thread, it was my thread this was based on. I appreciate this being made. I did not think The person was shellfish, I don't think anyone who tried to take there own life selfish. I agree when someone is in the wrong frame of mind it dosent go through. I'm going to try and explain this as best as I can, my eldest DS has sever Mh problems. In the human brain there's a piece of the brain that wants to keep us alive, for someone to take there own life they have to bypass this, when someone is so ill other parts of the grain stop working to. I hope I have explained that okay.

The person was shellfish