Please read me if you feel that committing suicide is 'selfish'

[wheresmymojo]

This is slightly a TAAT but I feel it's such an important topic I wanted to start a new thread about it rather than derailing one this has come up on.

A lot of people feel that suicide is 'selfish'. Selfish because of the impact on family left behind, anyone who sees the suicide (if it's in a more public setting) or has to deal with the aftermath and anyone who might be directly involved through no choice of their own (e.g. train drivers).

I completely understand why it seems selfish.

As someone who has been suicidal many times (albeit only one unsuccessful attempt) I just wanted to explain why the person isn't selfish.

Once you get to the state of depression where you are suicidal you are really no longer yourself. You look like you, you talk like you, but you are not you. Your brain has been overcome with chemicals that mean your actions are no longer 'your actions' any more. Your thoughts are no longer 'your thoughts'. Major depression is like an alien has taken over your brain.

It's a long slide (usually) - you become less 'you' and more the 'alien' every day. By the time you're suicidal 'you' have pretty much vacated the building.

You can't see suicide as something negative for your family and friends or the pain that it will cause because all you can see is how much better off they will be without you. In a twisted way you are doing it partly for them, because you feel you're just dragging them down. You're making their life difficult and they'll be so much better off without you.

As for others who may find your body/train drivers/etc....when you are that suicidal you don't really think about them. Not because you're selfish but because the illness makes you have complete tunnel vision. All you can see is your pain and how much you want to die. You are not capable of thinking about the impact on people who might see/deal with the aftermath.

I guess that's the bit I want to make clear....you aren't making a selfish decision not to think about them, you aren't capable of thinking about them.

You're not in charge of your thoughts any more, the illness is and it just wants you to die and it blocks out anything that might make you think twice.

Sorry - this is an essay but I feel it's important to try and get across what it's like. I genuinely feel that by the time I feel suicidal I'm no more 'myself' than someone who has dementia might be 'themselves' just in a different way.

My often suicidal ex friend frequently planned her death and got all her affairs in order and planned the method, day, time etc. So she was quite capable of thinking of the effects on others.
*
What about suicide notes? Writing one of those shows that thought has been given to those left behind.*

You can still think...I'm not suggesting people with severe depression lose the ability to think at all.

But the way the illness manifests when it is severe is to drive you to want to kill yourself and you cannot see that killing yourself isn't infinitely better for your loved ones.

The illness genuinely makes you 100% believe that everyone - your family, spouse, the world at large will be so much better off without you around.

@ineedaknittedhat I didn't say the whole brain....parts of it actually do practically shit down.

This has been clearly demonstrated through scientific research on brain activity scans.

So while severely depressed I may be able to do many, many things exactly as I always could but other parts of the brain are not functioning correctly.

My ex friend had a fatal allergy and was a nurse so knew and had access to very effective methods. Instead she chose to use ineffective methods that involved lots of others and was never successful. I felt very sorry for her but after years of supporting her and constantly worrying about if she was dead I had to break ties. She had daily support from psychiatrists, therapists, CPN's, and was on numerous meds. This was 20 years of help. She was unable to move on and was scared of happiness so made a conscious decision to stay the way she was as that was what she knew. Very sad.

Shit = shut obviously.

...I don't agree that people who kill themselves are thinking clearly. They have a severe mental illness - they are not thinking clearly.

Hence why people can be sectioned.

I totally agree with you Op.

@LittleMissEngineer

OP, I think that you underestimate the impact that suicide has on those left behind - immediate family

To me they are two separate concepts.

I would never underestimate the impact it has on family - we have someone in our family that killed themselves and I saw it's devastating impact.

I'm only saying that the way that severe depression impacts someone's thinking means they are not capable of doing it with the kind of selfish motivation people often ascribe to it.

Generally people assume their motivation is along the lines of "I'm in incredible pain and I absolutely understand that it will devastate those around me but being out of pain is more important to me so I'm going to do it anyway".

This level of thinking is possibly there when someone is considering suicide but doesn't go through with it. They aren't 'fully gone' yet and can still see that their suicide will harm others.

By the time I'm actually suicidal that ability to see the harm to others has gone - I can only see that everyone will be better with me gone (even when that's quite plainly to any reasonable person not the case).

The devastating impact remains the same - I really don't want to minimise it at all. I'm just saying that the level of ability to consider it has been greatly impaired by illness by the time someone is in the state to actually kill themselves.

I can't get away from the fact it's a dreadful thing to do to the family. When you have kids somehow you have GOT to get your mind off yourself. Get help and antidepressants and do what you have to do to endure for feelings and carry on. Your kids are the most important responsibility and need love and protection.

I don't see what is so offensive in saying that suicide is selfish. It is what it is. The word selfish isn't outrageously offensive in iself. Most people will look on it as an act that is part tragic, part painful, part regrettable and part selfish. Their feelings are just as valid as those of the suicidal person. People with depression and suicidal people either wish for or ask for sometimes impossible levels of understanding and empathy. Sometimes those around them just don't have any more resources to give.

One of DS’s friends’ dad killed him self when his son had just turned 8. The impact of that is massive, will never ever ever go away and will most likely impact on the son’s mental health in adulthood (even increasing his chances of suicide).

This is true - people who have been impacted by suicide are more likely to choose the same path themselves.

No-one can understand the impact of suicide more than them - they have lived through it and it has devastated them...but severe depression will mean that even they may think their loved ones are better off without them. That's how twisted logic can become at that point.

I've attempted suicide 4 times. 3 times since having DD (single parent) and none of those times were social services called or was any after care/follow up given. Nothing. Meeting with Psychiatrist before leaving hospital to make sure I don't threaten to do it again as soon as I arrive home and that was it 🤷🏼‍♀️

The last time, I posted on MN begging for help (I know, I know but I wasn't thinking straight ) and MNHQ deleted the thread, after I'd got some really supportive answers. It was that which tipped me over the edge if I'm honest.....

The time before that, I turned to a so-called friend as I was scared of what I was going to do to myself and she went ballistic! Called me selfish, a nutcase and that I was to stay away from her kids! As if I was some kind of dangerous serial killer

Most people will look on it as an act that is part tragic, part painful, part regrettable and part selfish.

Yes - that is the truth.

And if you have kids - they always come first. There is no getting away from that - you can't do that to them. Somehow you have to survive.

I don't see what is so offensive in saying that suicide is selfish. It is what it is. The word selfish isn't outrageously offensive in iself. Most people will look on it as an act that is part tragic, part painful, part regrettable and part selfish. Their feelings are just as valid as those of the suicidal person. People with depression and suicidal people either wish for or ask for sometimes impossible levels of understanding and empathy. Sometimes those around them just don't have any more resources to give

Agree 100%

And if you have kids - they always come first. There is no getting away from that - you can't do that to them. Somehow you have to survive.

Would you say this if someone who died from cancer? Both depression and cancer can be fatal illnesses.

Its like a butterfly effect. One person kills themselves and causes lifelong issues for friends, family any witnesses etc. They will then possibly suffer from depression, go down the same path.

Its not selfish in that it makes a few people sad for week or 2 its selfish in that ending your own life will likely ruin someone elses.

Whether you know that or want that, it will.

I suspect its something you can only understand when youre in that position because even on my lowest days i couldn't contemplate punishing everyone i love for my own problems.

@Suicideoptions

I'm so sorry you are living with this - I know it's a cliche response but have you sought help?

After many experiments with medication and lots of therapy I no longer become suicidal. I get moderate depression but not severe depression on the anti-depressants I take now.

It has changed my life....

You cannot compare cancer to depression. I actually find that quite offensive. I suspect the vast majority of cancer sufferers are doing all then can not to die.

Would you say this if someone who died from cancer? Both depression and cancer can be fatal illnesses.

Cancer is a tragedy you don't have control over. Taking your own life you have control. Kids need their parents as long as possible. Stay alive if you can.

Thank you posting about this Op.

My Dad committed suicide 4 years ago during another period of major depression which he kept hidden from everyone except my Mum.

I have never considered him selfish or resented him for the devastation his death caused our family. He was a wonderful man who became severely ill. I wouldn't call him selfish if he died of cancer or a heart attack so I won't call him selfish because he died due to an illness of the brain.

The other thing about losing a parent to suicide is the guilt or blaming yourself that it was your fault or you could have done more. You also feel very rejected. Lifetime torment.

You cannot compare cancer to depression. I actually find that quite offensive. I suspect the vast majority of cancer sufferers are doing all then can not to die

It is offensive that you don’t consider depression to be an illness as serious as cancer.

In terms of getting help, there is more that can be done for depression than terminal cancer.

I dont think depression is a serious illness but suicidal people choose to die. Cancer sufferers do not.

I *do think

Cancer sufferers do not.

Plenty of cancer sufferers reach a point where they don’t want more treatment.

That is entirely different than purposefully taking your own life.

even on my lowest days i couldn't contemplate punishing everyone i love for my own problems.

Yes.