Please read me if you feel that committing suicide is 'selfish'

[wheresmymojo]

This is slightly a TAAT but I feel it's such an important topic I wanted to start a new thread about it rather than derailing one this has come up on.

A lot of people feel that suicide is 'selfish'. Selfish because of the impact on family left behind, anyone who sees the suicide (if it's in a more public setting) or has to deal with the aftermath and anyone who might be directly involved through no choice of their own (e.g. train drivers).

I completely understand why it seems selfish.

As someone who has been suicidal many times (albeit only one unsuccessful attempt) I just wanted to explain why the person isn't selfish.

Once you get to the state of depression where you are suicidal you are really no longer yourself. You look like you, you talk like you, but you are not you. Your brain has been overcome with chemicals that mean your actions are no longer 'your actions' any more. Your thoughts are no longer 'your thoughts'. Major depression is like an alien has taken over your brain.

It's a long slide (usually) - you become less 'you' and more the 'alien' every day. By the time you're suicidal 'you' have pretty much vacated the building.

You can't see suicide as something negative for your family and friends or the pain that it will cause because all you can see is how much better off they will be without you. In a twisted way you are doing it partly for them, because you feel you're just dragging them down. You're making their life difficult and they'll be so much better off without you.

As for others who may find your body/train drivers/etc....when you are that suicidal you don't really think about them. Not because you're selfish but because the illness makes you have complete tunnel vision. All you can see is your pain and how much you want to die. You are not capable of thinking about the impact on people who might see/deal with the aftermath.

I guess that's the bit I want to make clear....you aren't making a selfish decision not to think about them, you aren't capable of thinking about them.

You're not in charge of your thoughts any more, the illness is and it just wants you to die and it blocks out anything that might make you think twice.

Sorry - this is an essay but I feel it's important to try and get across what it's like. I genuinely feel that by the time I feel suicidal I'm no more 'myself' than someone who has dementia might be 'themselves' just in a different way.

@banhaha completely agree with you

@mindgoinground12 I didn't see your thread, but I'm very sorry to hear about your DS. My DD has had horrendous MH issues, so I really can sympathise.

@PlantPotParrot I dont think depression is a serious illness but suicidal people choose to die

I pity you. Your lack of compassion and understanding is embarrassing and shameful.

Untreated clinical depression is a very serious condition. It is not being down in the dumps, being grumpy because something upset you or a 'bit of stress'.

It affects your ability to think, function, sleep, work, drive and much more. It can cause serious disruptions in your daily interactions with others, damage family life, damage your reputation and social standing. It can totally destroy your previously normal sex drive. And it can do all these at the same time.

Depression can be the root cause of many other conditions; it can start in response to life events or start without apparent cause. It can be the direct cause of another illness or medical event. It can hit some people so quickly, so hard and affect people who you would never expect to have 'emotional issues'. No one is immune.

It does not discriminate. It does not care about your race, gender, religion, social class, education level, intelligence or anything else.

Despite my opinion that you are ignorant, I genuinely hope you never feel the depths of despair I feel during major depressive episodes.

It's so true that for someone to be in a position where their natural instinct to keep themselves away from danger has been overriden, they are not going to be capable of other considerations.

I'm glad to see lots of us are of an accord on this.

suicideoptions i corrected dont to do in my next post. It was a typo no need to jump down my throat.

PlantPotParrot

@PlantPotParrot I do think

I am so sorry.... I hadn't seen your amenment

@PlantPotParrot my apology was being typed as you were typing not to jump down your throat....

Think I better leave the discussion, with apologies to plantpot

Dont leave on my behalf. Dont worry about it!

I have been very suicidal in the past, and I went through a horrendous period of my life in 2015-2016 when I had a horrible head injury and post concussion syndrome, and then I got a drug induced incurable involuntary movement disorder called tardive dyskinesia.

My brother died from cancer in 2017, I lost my job the same year, plus had an ectopic pregnancy too. I have had lots of great times over the past year thanks to the birth of my DS, but if it wasn’t for my DC, I would be very suicidal most days. I do have very down times when I wallow and feel life has not been kind, and during these very dark moments of despair, I do honestly look at suicide as being better than struggling on my whole life with lots that I can’t change.

But then I have to take a step back and look at everything I have to be grateful for, and it puts it a bit more into perspective. I could never put my DC and family through the pain of losing me, but the only time I truly contemplated suicide during my mental breakdown, illogic thoughts prevailed and I didn’t care literally about anything or anyone. My only overriding emotion was to escape all my pain and emotions.

Suicidal ideation is a dreadful state of mind to be in, but it isn’t selfish and no-one should ever made to feel like they are.

What about family annihilators who kill themselves after wiping out their wife and kids? Are they also unselfish and seriously ill?

"The person committing suicide is incapable of rational thought. Literally incapable."

My father planned his suicide for over a year. Made sure everything was arranged to the millimetre. He wrote three letters: one to his family, one to the judge and one to the police, and arranged them so they would be found. He was definitely NOT incapable of rational thought. Just incapable or unable to think of anybody else that was not him. Not all suicides are the same, not all experiences are the same. I knew my father and no one else on this thread did. My father was selfish for his whole life, and left the World with a final "fuck you" charade act that caused unbelievable devastation to many people who still managed to love him and had put up with his shit for their whole lives, and now were left feeling even more useless after he decided it was timer to go in his own terms.

I think the problem is, as some posters mentioned, the "negative" social connotations of the word "selfish". Selfish people never consider themselves selfish. Every selfish person is incapable of noticing how selfish they are. that does not make them any less selfish. The fact we feel sorry for people who commit suicide dose not detract from the fact that, in my opinion, they have committed an incredibly selfish act, especially adults who have a whole life of learning behind them, have dependants and people who look up to them, and had time to consider what they did (like my father did).

My father's suicide left other members of my family at much higher risk of committing suicide themselves. Young men who now think "what's the point?" after seeing what my father did.

Yes, my father's act was incredibly selfish and I will never, ever forgive him. He is not suffering anymore, but plenty of other people will suffer for the rest of their lives as a result of what he did.

Other people's experiences may be different, and the suicide of a bullied teenager or the sudden "I don't want to put up with this anymore" act of a desperate person are very different stories from my father's. However this is my personal experience and my opinion as not changed as a result of reading this post.

When you cause harm to others because you didn't think of them, just of yourself, that is the definition of selfish, whether we feel sorry for the person committing the act or not.

My beautiful, beloved, amazing, talented son took his own life nearly seven years ago when he was 22 years old.
His then 20 year old brother found him four days later.

My son had rapid cycling bi polar disorder and was frightened of his condition.

He genuinely believed that he was destroying the love that we all had for him and that by leaving us, he was saving us from him.
His final words in his journal were 'for what it's worth, I'm sorry '

He was not selfish, he was ill and in pain and scared.

I wish that he was alive but if he was still alive, he would still be ill and in pain and scared.

I wouldn't want that for him, I wouldn't want him to be alive and suffering to prevent us from suffering.

Wanting him to be alive with his illness is selfish.

Suicide is not selfish, it's the only way that he had to stop his pain

I am not the same person I was day before he died, my younger son has struggled horrifically since. My partner has changed in ways that have made him almost unrecognisable.

However, we have never blamed James. We have never thought that he was selfish.

We miss him and we mourn his death. We cry and we laugh and we are so grateful for the time that we had with him.

22 years with him was the greatest privilege that I could ever have had. I'm so incredibly lucky to be his mum.

I think this is such a hard discussion as the person who has had a parent kill themselves and is so angry and hurt, they are unlike to be able to the act of suicide as anything but selfish.

The people who sadly are effected by the discovery of hung body from a railway bridge on their way walking down the track to start work they are more inclined to believe it to be a selfish act, as it had such a massive impact on their life where they can no longer do the job they have done for 20yrs.

But having someone suffer from health issues and being sectioned or hitting complete rock bottom will identity with the fact their is no rationale there when the person decides to end their life. It is out of their conscious control.

I am of the belief it is both, that it is a selfish act but out of the conscious control of the person committing the act. That is not sitting on the fence, I truly believe it.

We need to get into a situation where mental health is greater supported, that the support is more accessible to all, not the few, and it's is talked about more openly. IMO (But that's a different thread )

That should read mental health issues not health issues

What about family annihilators who kill themselves after wiping out their wife and kids? Are they also unselfish and seriously ill?

That is not what we're discussing, start a thread on that if that is what you want to discuss. Theres people here writing very personal and emotional posts, keep irrelevent nonsence out of it.

Why is it “irrelevant”?

There are blanket assumptions on this thread that all people who kill themselves are seriously ill, incapable of irrational thought... or is it the case that you actually need to look at each situation individually and blanket assumptions about people’s motives and state of mind aren’t helpful?

@darumafan that's beautiful 💐

When I had depression, I did a number of things that were selfish. I couldn't see it at the time but it was, ultimately, selfish.
I have had to deal with the consequences of those actions and rightly so.

When I contemplated suicide, it was a selfish thought. A way to end my unbearable pain and not feel it anymore, completely disregarding the feelings of those around me. It was selfish.

When my DM tried to kill herself (and thankfully failed) I was unbelievably angry at her selfishness. How dare she think that that was even a valid way to deal with things? Ultimately deciding for us that she wasn't needed anymore when we absolutely did and still do. We will always need her in our lives.

To me, suicide is the ultimate selfish act. Leaving everybody else to pick up the pieces. The trauma that gives a policeman/woman from trying to talk someone down, for example. How dare people inflict that trauma on others?

I fully understand the thought process, I really do. I wanted to drink bleach at my lowest point. But it does not negate the selfishness behind it.

YouBumder you are talking about murder suicide. If you read the OP, this thread is not about that. As I said, start a thread on that if you want to discuss it, its free.

@aurynne I understand, and I agree.

My father committed suicide when I was a teenager. He left my mother with 3 children to care for on her own. I think it was one of the most selfish acts imaginable. Unforgivable, for me.

aurynne

I think you post is a similar experience for my sister and nephew

He punished my sister in death too he was an incredibly selfish and abusive man and now we have to see my nephew and his other son suffer terribly the pain and devastation he has left behind is truly awful

Having worked with people who have openly spoken about wanting to die and making plans it is certainly not true that people are not able to make rational decisions what therapists often look out for when someone they are working with is struggling is a sudden change in mood, more focused, upbeat is considered a warning sign

Human emotions are very complex depression differs and the reasons why people end their life are individual as we all are

To echo what a PP said.... Many people who kill themselves are suicidal and depressed and deserve our support and empathy, however there is a group of people who kills themselves who are not depressed and do not deserve our sympathy. Who are not unwell. Who are bitter or angry or just evil. They are not mentally unwell. There is also a group of people who do not kill themselves, who do not actually attempt to kill themselves but seem to pretend to try......

I had a parent who went through a suicidal phase. It lasted years.

Completely destroyed our family. Destroyed what we had. Destroyed confidence. Destroyed trust. Ruined childhoods.

That parent was selfish as they never actually committed suicide. Sounds callous I know but I have more sympathy for those poor men & women who do actually try to commit suicide and even more for those that succeed.

Do I think those people are selfish..... yes but I understand they are unwell. I understand the black dog was there and the black fog rolled in and they could not / cannot see reality and truly believed everyone would be better off without them.

However there is a group of people who never actually attempt to commit suicide but make a huge song n dance about doing so but don't accept help nor seek out help AND nor do they actually make an attempt because they are blackmailing their family to feel sorry for them or are so evil they don’t care. That group are selfish. Truly selfish.

My parent did not need to go down this avenue.

In hindsight it was a mid life crisis and they spent a couple of years having a big tantrum because they had overspent, over promised and could not see how to turn things round to save themselves from losing everything. If they had sought help, accepted help, things could have been very different. In fact if they had not been so self absorbed 10 year's previously they could have reined in spending and made some different decisions.

But they didn't. They were selfish. Just before “it” all kicked off they went round the world. Ha ha ha. & left a child with no one to stay with in half term and later no support with said child's education.

Our Parents are pretty much absolutely fine now. But no apology. No acknowledgement of the hell nor the Mental or physical DV we were subject to.

I will never ever trust them. & it's 20 years ago now.

And yes. If I get 50 calls a day again threatening to commit suicide I will just put the phone down after telling them to just F-ing do it......

I 100% agree OP. When you are that unwell you aren't capable of being selfish

I would argue that when you are that unwell you aren’t capable of being anything but selfish.

The problem is the word selfish carries all sorts of connotations that sound like there is a moral judgement being made- in this sense nobody means self-indulgent, or actively thinking bollocks to everyone else, or that sort of thing- but in the sense that the person has become so consumed by their own pain and despair that they don’t consider the impact their actions will have on others- it is selfish.

I've got schizoaffective disorder so bipolar depression is part of that along with paranoia & Psychosis, despite taking high dose anti depressants & anti psychotics I do get breakthrough symptoms when I feel suddenly suicidal & it worries me that I'll do something I'd regret when I'm in a more sane state of mind.

How can symptoms of a psychotic illness for example be called selfish?

In 2012 I thought that everyone was plotting to kill me - my workplace managers, my psychiatrists, the government & mi6 were all in conspiracy to get me to kill myself & I tried to stab myself.

I did call an ambulance as I didn't actually want to die (I was very mixed up) who called the police who talked me round & got me some help but basically if I'd succeeded - would that have been selfish considering the circumstances?

Thank you for giving me the chance to express some feelings in this post that I did not feel I could share with anyone else in real life. My greatest hug and love to everyone who has been touched by suicide, either on themselves or by the suicide/suicide attempt/suicide ideation of others. It really is a shitty place to be.