Please read me if you feel that committing suicide is 'selfish'

[wheresmymojo]

This is slightly a TAAT but I feel it's such an important topic I wanted to start a new thread about it rather than derailing one this has come up on.

A lot of people feel that suicide is 'selfish'. Selfish because of the impact on family left behind, anyone who sees the suicide (if it's in a more public setting) or has to deal with the aftermath and anyone who might be directly involved through no choice of their own (e.g. train drivers).

I completely understand why it seems selfish.

As someone who has been suicidal many times (albeit only one unsuccessful attempt) I just wanted to explain why the person isn't selfish.

Once you get to the state of depression where you are suicidal you are really no longer yourself. You look like you, you talk like you, but you are not you. Your brain has been overcome with chemicals that mean your actions are no longer 'your actions' any more. Your thoughts are no longer 'your thoughts'. Major depression is like an alien has taken over your brain.

It's a long slide (usually) - you become less 'you' and more the 'alien' every day. By the time you're suicidal 'you' have pretty much vacated the building.

You can't see suicide as something negative for your family and friends or the pain that it will cause because all you can see is how much better off they will be without you. In a twisted way you are doing it partly for them, because you feel you're just dragging them down. You're making their life difficult and they'll be so much better off without you.

As for others who may find your body/train drivers/etc....when you are that suicidal you don't really think about them. Not because you're selfish but because the illness makes you have complete tunnel vision. All you can see is your pain and how much you want to die. You are not capable of thinking about the impact on people who might see/deal with the aftermath.

I guess that's the bit I want to make clear....you aren't making a selfish decision not to think about them, you aren't capable of thinking about them.

You're not in charge of your thoughts any more, the illness is and it just wants you to die and it blocks out anything that might make you think twice.

Sorry - this is an essay but I feel it's important to try and get across what it's like. I genuinely feel that by the time I feel suicidal I'm no more 'myself' than someone who has dementia might be 'themselves' just in a different way.

Sorry for what your uncle went through, but do you think that person was thinking rationally? They were desperately ill.

@PurpleDaisies they made a conscious decision to go and jump off a bridge in the middle of the day. If they wanted to die, there's plenty of ways to do it in private.

Yes they are ill, but why does that make it ok to hurt so many other lives

They made a “conscious” decision in the depths of mental illness.

@Lazypuppy something similar on the ASLEF page recently.

Someone committed suicide in front of his train. The driver then fell into depression, started drinking etc, his marriage broke down and he himself committed suicide.

So sad for everyone involved.

I think the people who choose to do it aren't selfish in that moment. They feel they have no other choice. Which makes me feel incredibly sad for them. I can see why you'd feel that way though. Someone else's choices impacting your Uncles life forever.

they made a conscious decision to go and jump off a bridge in the middle of the day. If they wanted to die, there's plenty of ways to do it in private

Without getting into too many graphic details,there aren't. It's not like the movies where you can take a few pills and drift off. Jumping like that is a way to pretty much ensure you end your life.

Someone can do something selfish deliberately and maliciously, or they can do something selfish because they're desperate unwell and incapable of seeing any alternative. But either way, it's still a selfish act.

siglingor

Someone can do something selfish deliberately and maliciously, or they can do something selfish because they're desperate unwell and incapable of seeing any alternative. But either way, it's still a selfish act.

^^ this

What if someone chooses to kill themselves by driving their car the wrong way down a motorway? The train drivers who end up off work or even choosing suicide themselves after the horrific things they witness? Of course people with mental health are not thinking rationally but sometimes the ripple effect of their actions can be devastating for innocent people.

Suicide doesn't end pain, it just transfers the pain to someone else - I'm still angry at how my father choose to end his life. I can have empathy but a part of me thinks it was a selfish thing to do.

Without getting into too many graphic details,there aren't. It's not like the movies where you can take a few pills and drift off. Jumping like that is a way to pretty much ensure you end your life

Exactly. It’s why euthanasia should be legalised. How many ways can people kill themselves without it being so called “selfish” and having people have to deal with the body??

When my stepmother killed herself when I was 12, that was selfish, cowardly almost.
It ruined my life, I became alcohol and drug dependant by the time I was 14, ran away from home and was sleeping rough, self harmed numerous times causing permenant nerve damage, attempted suicide, hospitalized myself, then became a victim of child sexual exploitation and was raped on a weekly basis. And that's even before the full recovery or the length of therapy I had to endure.

She was fucking selfish and I hate her for her actions, I hope she found the peace she so desperately wanted.

Sorry to be so blunt but this is the reality of the people who are affected by it.

Suicide doesn't end pain, it just transfers the pain to someone else I think this sums it up really well.

Exactly. It’s why euthanasia should be legalised. How many ways can people kill themselves without it being so called “selfish” and having people have to deal with the body??

You think suicidal people will be of sound mind to consent to euthanasia?

Gosh this is a sad thread 😔

I tried multiple times as a late teen. I am now in my forties and the same problems exist and I wish I’d been successful back then. I hate that I would have upset people but I still have the same mindset, I don’t want to be here. If a Euthanasia pill existed I would take it tomorrow. Absolutely.

You think suicidal people will be of sound mind to consent to euthanasia? confused

I don’t know what the answer is but seeing so many comments saying how selfish people who commit suicide are because someone has to find the body etc. They have no choice as there is no place for them legally to go. I’m talking about people who for example are suffering due to health conditions.

I’m talking about people who for example are suffering due to health conditions.

Those (mostly) aren’t the people standing in front of trains.

Thanks for explaining that OP. I lost my sister to suicide 3 years ago, and there are many days when I do see what she did as selfish. I can understand that the illness took over her brain and made her think it was best for everyone, but that doesn't make it unselfish. Maybe she couldn't help being selfish just then. I do find it very hard to forgive her for what she did to my parents, who she knew would have done absolutely anything for her. Days after my mum told her she'd break their hearts if she ever went through with it, she took herself off and killed herself. I don't think you can get much more selfish than that. So I would say suicide is selfish - yes maybe the person can't help it right then, but it would be better to focus on why that is than to argue about whether it is selfish or not.

You think suicidal people will be of sound mind to consent to euthanasia?

Yes. If they don’t want to live anymore then they should absolutely have that right. Obviously there must be sufficient safeguards and they must have tried all possible treatments first.

Oh great, a devil's advocate on a thread about suicide

Whatever you might have felt to grieve a suicide - and I can only imagine - , I assure you that the turmoil and pain is something they felt too, to the point that it seemed like the only thing to do

I totally agree OP.

However when you're the one left behind, or the one who was essentially forced to end someone else's life through not fault of your own, it can be very difficult to think rationally about the whole situation.

I feel unbelievably sorry for the drivers who have to live with the fact that they killed someone. That's not something you're ever going to forget, and I know there are plenty of drivers who have ended up committing suicide themselves because they can't live with what they've done.

Those (mostly) aren’t the people standing in front of trains

I’m talking about mh conditions as well.

Yes. If they don’t want to live anymore then they should absolutely have that right. Obviously there must be sufficient safeguards and they must have tried all possible treatments first

Exactly. Most people who make that decision to kill themselves do not do it wanting to cause others the trauma of dealing with their body.

Killing yourself would be a selfish thing to do if you were capable of rational thought in that moment, but these people are not. They are ill.

Everyone talks about mental health and suicide, and how we should be supportive (we should be) but what is rarely talked about is the impact mental health issues and suicide has on family and friends, who have had to cope with the illness and pick up the pieces afterwards.

Whilst I don't think suicide is selfish per se, I understand and sympathise with the anger and distress family and friends have, who have lost a loved one in this way. I don't blame them for thinking it's selfish.

If they don’t want to live anymore then they should absolutely have that right. Obviously there must be sufficient safeguards and they must have tried all possible treatments first.

How would this work in practice when there are literally hundreds of treatments to try, and many, many of these people wouldn’t be competent to consent to euthanasia because of their mental illness.

Speaking as someone who has experienced suicide in their immediate family, I think there are probably as many reasons for committing suicide as there are individual people. Yes, I do think some are selfish where the person acted out of anger. But I also think that there are many motivated by the opposite of selfishness, in the erroneous belief that their family will be better off without them (NB in nearly all cases they won't). And of course , inadequate mental health care provision means that people's depression can spiral out of control and people become overwhelmed by seeking help and not receiving it.

Having said all of that, I'm sorry, but I do think that however ill you are (and I have every sympathy with people who suffer dreadfully from chronic depression) it actually takes quite a bit of willpower, planning and determination to overcome one's natural feelings of self- preservation and kill yourself. And even in extremis, there is always a choice. But I recognise that my feelings about this can never be completely unbiased.

I can see both sides with this. Someone very close to me committed suicide last year and although she was the most unselfish person, she had become so mentally unwell and unlike herself after suffering for years that she just couldn't bear life anymore. At the end she wasn't thinking rationally, wasn't herself at all and by committing suicide ended her own pain but destroyed the lives of those who loved her most, especially her parents who she was so very close to. My friend tried to help herself get well for over 20 years putting on a brave face to those she knew and yet nothing worked for her. Seeing how she was towards the end and her having the knowledge that she had tried and tried to get well for so long I can see why she felt how she did. I wish things were different and she was still here but whilst mental health services are so lacking this will continue. Some may say it's a very selfish act for those who deal with the aftermath but try walking in the suicidal persons shoes for just one day.