Excluded from school. Year 1 aged 6.

[ItsTheGinTalking]

I have posted in SN children but feel there may be more traffic here
Also if you feel this shouldn't be here do delete it MN as I've posted in SN. Thank you

Hi everyone
Been a while since I posted on MN. But I've never posted in this group before.
My 6 yr old child is struggling at school socially. He has a referral to cahms in, referral to Educational Pyschologist, Community Peadiateician, CFIT and a few others
He hits other children, kicks, nips, shouts.
This started at the back end of reception class. I noticed stuff at home and mentioned to school but because he didn't show the behaviour they didn't say or do anything.

Now he is terrorising the class. He has an IEP in place and does anger management with WESAIL through the local council.

Academically he is doing well and is on year 2 reading books, is brilliant at his maths and spelling. But socially is where he lets himself down as school say.

He prefers 1-1 support so will do something in class that gets him removed because he likes to sit in the headteacher or the deputy heads office because it's quiet and he has that 1-1 support.

He prefers adult company and has said many times he's hates other kids especially his age or younger.
He has been brought up with older brothers and adults.

On Friday at 2.25 I got a phone call to say could I go to school asap...He has been excluded for 1.5 days and is not allowed back till Tuesday as the 1.5 has been included with Friday

I have a reintergrating meeting at 3.15 on Tuesday when I collect him. But is there anything I need to ask or question?

TIA

Luna if I didn't want to out myself I'd invite you to join pda fb groups where what I've put is common place.
Really strangely the CAMHS psychiatrist and paediatricians who diagnosed my son were BOTH in agreement that this behaviour is very typical in demand avoidant autism so you can take your offensive pile of bollocks comment and stick it where the sun doesn't shine!

Do you have any idea how long psychiatrists train for? Yet you appear to think you know more than them. Unfuckingbelievable delusions of grandeur.

Hi there,

Just here with our usual reminder that Mumsnet is all about making parents' lives easier.

We've had a few reports about posts that are either not in the spirit of Mumsnet, or disablist, and we will continue to remove those when they are reported to us.

Thanks, and sorry for interrupting the thread!

Bytrain Unless children have very authoritarian parents they are very scared of, virtually all children are worse behaved at home than in school.
Maybe that is worse with autistic kids? I don't know. But if yes, then it is simply an exaggerated form of normal behaviour.
So kids without SEN who attend an occasion where they have to be incredibly well behaved, often behave worse afterwards than normal.
Doesn't always work, but it can work to build in unstructured time for kids to run about, straight after they have had to be incredibly well behaved and sit still silently for much longer than usual.

Actually Luna schools and teachers are up against the same difficulties the parents face.
Funding in schools is dire. Availability in suitable schools to meet needs is almost non existent.

Children are being forced to remain in schools which aren't suitable for their needs - however hard the school tries - and get stuck in a negative cycle of exclusion and increased anxiety

It's not about excusing behaviour but rather finding reasons and seeing what can be done to support the child.
Schools are under increased pressure to say they can meet need when they so obviously can't. Including in tribunals for special school places and EHCP (statements of need).
If at government level (gov and LA) they provided what is needed then the current situation wouldn't exist.

I've certainly never as a parent of a child with autism said I expect his teachers/ supporters to accept being hurt. But I have said they need to stand up to LA and fight rather than punish him for his disability whilst simultaneously returning him to the situation.

exparrot that is absolute rubbish. I know a few people with Aspergers (HFA), 2 children included. It is NOT common for them to go around punching people in the face. Absolute rot! That is not a characteristic.

Nobody said this was common. However, what is relatively common amongst children with autistic spectrum disorders is that, if their needs are not met, they may become absolutely overwhelmed with stress and frustration because they cannot communicate and because they are in physical pain due to sensory sensitivity to noise and light, and they lash out irrespective of who or what may get hurt or damaged. Punishing a child for that will achieve precisely nothing.

You might as well go (and take your disablist opinions with you).

Op please ignore anything Luna has said.
My son was incredibly violent at home when he was younger but perfect at school. Now he's a teenager it's swapped, he's much better at home and a nightmare at school and we have safeguarding issues now too.

The other thing I meant to say was have you applied for dla? You don't need a diagnosis to claim it but it can really help financially.

Before you go, Luna, have a look at the number of your posts that have been deleted and have a think about why that might be.

Instead of haranguing and criticising everyone on this thread Lunafort, has it occurred to you to suggest what measures the OP could take. You use outdated terms, you criticise every response as enabling, but you haven’t, as others have, offered anything practical or useful.

I know how it is for schools. I was a teacher for many years, 19 of them working with children with SEND. It doesn’t mean I attribute everything to poor parenting, or poor school experiences. The OP is clearly hoping for some ides to help her child, nor is she being critical.

Indeed, until only a couple of decades ago my views would have been in the majority.

I think this may be the only true thing you have said, Luna. Unfortunately for many children, a lot of people did indeed hold views such as yours. Even more unfortunately, quite a few of them worked in schools. My brother's experience at school was miserable because he was surrounded by people who saw him as difficult and troublesome rather than as a child with a disability (ASD in his case). He was a high achiever academically but the social demands of school were often too much for him. He was never violent to others though he was quite frequently the victim of violence. Schools are far from perfect now, but many teachers and others involved in schools have improved greatly in their understanding of SN. I wish my brother could have time travelled to the future and benefited from such understanding.

As for your lack of understanding about the issues that an adopted child can face, you have really demonstrated remarkable ignorance. I do hope you have left the thread. Your attempts to monopolise the discussion have been unhelpful to say the least.

ItsTheGin, I think you have received some excellent advice from PPs on this thread. I hope things improve for you and your DS.

Op - I hope you are okay. We were exactly where you were about 18 months ago. A lot when OMG before we had our first exclusion and we were still waiting for any professional input and school continued to do many many things, most of which weren't right for ds and made the situation worse. We encountered frustration and anger from school and other parents, we were cut off socially from everyone and it was like parting of the Red Sea in the playground when we came through. As time went on ds was isolated in space more and more and wasn't allowed to be around others and had many more exclusions which served to reject him further until he had a massive mental health crisis and we refused to send him back. In hindsight I wished I'd done it months before which would have minimised the damage. They would have been more helpful to say that his needs couldn't met and we shouldn't bring him to school until all the assessments and plans were in place first.

He's 8.5 now and diagnosed with autism, sensory processing disorder, profoundly gifted academically and anxiety. He hasn't been to school in months and has an EHCP but it took so long to get all the assessments and plans in place that it was too late for him. We're looking for a specialist provision for him but it's not easy being this presentation as he doesn't quite fit. He is however happy at home doing learning with family and attends a few clubs with a few loose friendships. Home life is calm and happy and mental health all round is better.

I also wouldn't send him back until you've had a proper reintegration meeting (why on earth would you have it after another day in school??!!) they need to identify all the issues and the new plans to mitigate them. The current plans aren't working obviously. I wish you lots of luck.

He sounds like my son and stepson - both couldn't cope with the stress of the standard classroom, lunch hall, PE changing etc without adaptation. Over a few years, we have managed to figure out solutions and dss hasn't hit anyone since and ds is almost never hiding under tables, though dss does frequently run away.

One thing that jumps out is other kids getting in his face and doing things they know will set him off. What is being done about that to make sure the classroom is inclusive for all? Is there a supervised breaktime group so he and one or two other kids can practice playing together and he can be told about unwritten rules and the other kids can learn where to make allowances and also what he is good at?

It needs to be made clear to the class that laughing at someone wearing ear defenders is as nasty as laughing at someone's glasses or crutches or skin colour - totally unacceptable. What has been done to get that message across (though your ds may still not want to wear them in class...)

Is there a place he can go when he is overwhelmed, that isn't the classroom, eg just outside, or a sensory room if the school has one, or even just the corridor? Does he have a signal or card so that he can exit when it's getting too much? The school may argue that if he's outside the class a lot, he's not accessing the curriculum, in which case the answer is he's not accessing it when excluded either...

What other triggers are there? Food, noise, clothing, texture - if he's terrified of paint or PE kit, then just not using them is the obvious answer.

Talk to the GP and mention he's been excluded, as well as requesting the EHCP both from school and from the LA. Any drop-in clinics like occupational therapy may also be worth a go - the more angles a request comes in from, the sooner you will get support.

And do try a claim for DLA - being exlcuded from school age 6 is strong evidence of care needs (and mobility if he's prone to running away and/or hiding).

Good luck.

Oh well everyone, @lunafort knows a couple of people with autism, that makes her quite the expert. Never mind all of us and what our kids have to live with and struggle to cope with every day.

@lunafort and other ableist idiots, I’d watch yourselves on that high horse. Anyone could end up having kids or grandchildren with SN in their lives and you’d see then what rubbish you are talking.

I get the point about schools and how they are different to the past as well contributing to difficulties. My son’s last school had open plan classes and kids up and down all over the place and my son just could not cope. He’s now in a much older more traditional style school with closed classrooms and copes much better.

Every day, every single day he would go to school promising to be good and behave and I know he meant it and that was what he wanted to do. Sometimes he’d keep a lid on things and cope, other times he just couldn’t. Telling an autistic child during a meltdown caused by not coping with their environment to “just behave” is bloody useless.

If this post gets deleted because of ones ignorant comments I shall not be very happy as there are plenty useful information for me I'm currently at an event I cannot read through all posts.@Luna if you have nothing useful to post. Please go away

A few people have said can he go in class earlier...iWork and he goes to breakfast club 3 mornings a week when I'm working...I work bank so some weeks are different. Breakfast club is at a feeder school where he will possibly be going next year for year 3...So far his behaviour there has been positive and they have no concerns but there is time.
School have said a risk assessment will be pit in place if he displays behaviours that is cause for concern.

The reintegration meeting is at 3 15 because I am working at 8am on Tuesday so I cannot attend until Tuesday after school.

I will have a good read of all comments ina while and reply properly. Thank you

Forgive me of it's something you've already come across, but I highly recommend reading as much as you can about sensory processing disorder. It co-exists alongside so many SEN... I've found it really helpful to read up on. Identifying the individual's sensory needs can really help to figure out what can help them when they're struggling. I see you've said the school had a sensory bucket for your son, which has been destroyed. I'm wondering if they had the right kind of things there for him, or if perhaps they weren't using it correctly. If they're only giving it to him when he's angry enough to destroy everything in it, then it's too late for it to have any positive effect. I would ask if they can implement sensory breaks throughout the school day. Proprioceptive input might also help, so if you've not tried it yet maybe he would benefit from a compression vest or a weighted lap pad for calming effect. I highly recommend the book 'understanding your child's sensory signals'. It gives sensory reasons behind a vast range of behaviours and gives advice on how to help with these. I hope that you're not waiting too long for your son's assessment.

Ignore my typos! I would also ask the school to implement a visual timetable (if they haven't already) Maybe even get your son to help plan his day where possible by choosing when to have his sensory breaks. Giving him a bit of control might help him feel less anxious.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned as I've not read the whole thread. Consider auditory processing disorder. Quite often kids are misdiagnosed with ADHD. But kids with APD behave in similar ways and if the class room is too overloading, that will be why he lashes out. Also consider requesting referral to occupational therapist. School/GP can refer. GP for referral for auditory processing.

Luna I have 4 children, 3 of them have never hit me or anyone else. They wouldn't do it, they know it's wrong. They understand , they get it, the world works for them.
You have no idea how much my other child would love to be like that.

luna
My views, based on experience, are not unusual or abnormal. Indeed, until only a couple of decades ago my views would have been in the majority
Yes but we are not 20 years ago thank goodness. You are by your own admission, expressing outdated and inappropriate views. We don't think like that anymore because we know a lot more now about MH and SEN issues. Good God, you probably think rape within marriage is not a crime and menopausal women should be institutionalised and put on Valium.

Many years ago children had options to go to specialist schools, smaller schools, there wasn’t the option of mainstream
Government then decided to include everyone in mainstream without the specialist training required

As I understand it, teacher receive half a day on SEN during their training. They rely on a decent SENco to help implement interventions and rearrange classrooms

There isn’t much they can do in respect of noise

In the past many kids who are diagnosed as autistic did not go to specialist schools. Many children diagnosed today would not once have been diagnosed with autism. The criteria has changed over the years. We know that because research has looked at children in the past who were assessed for autism and found not to have it. A lot in the research would now be diagnosed with autism.
I suspect though that the very structured classrooms of the past meant that some children who struggle today in school, would have coped better in the past.

OP of course every child is different. But all the research shows that for some children, having unstructured time to run around and burn off energy makes a big difference. It may not help your child, but you could try taking them to a playground every day after school to play and run around, and see if it helps.
Also for some children who get over stimulated easily, spending time playing computer games can make things worse.