Excluded from school. Year 1 aged 6.

[ItsTheGinTalking]

I have posted in SN children but feel there may be more traffic here
Also if you feel this shouldn't be here do delete it MN as I've posted in SN. Thank you

Hi everyone
Been a while since I posted on MN. But I've never posted in this group before.
My 6 yr old child is struggling at school socially. He has a referral to cahms in, referral to Educational Pyschologist, Community Peadiateician, CFIT and a few others
He hits other children, kicks, nips, shouts.
This started at the back end of reception class. I noticed stuff at home and mentioned to school but because he didn't show the behaviour they didn't say or do anything.

Now he is terrorising the class. He has an IEP in place and does anger management with WESAIL through the local council.

Academically he is doing well and is on year 2 reading books, is brilliant at his maths and spelling. But socially is where he lets himself down as school say.

He prefers 1-1 support so will do something in class that gets him removed because he likes to sit in the headteacher or the deputy heads office because it's quiet and he has that 1-1 support.

He prefers adult company and has said many times he's hates other kids especially his age or younger.
He has been brought up with older brothers and adults.

On Friday at 2.25 I got a phone call to say could I go to school asap...He has been excluded for 1.5 days and is not allowed back till Tuesday as the 1.5 has been included with Friday

I have a reintergrating meeting at 3.15 on Tuesday when I collect him. But is there anything I need to ask or question?

TIA

Luna just stop. You really have no idea of how it works here yet you keep on commenting. SEN diagnosis generally come through schools cooperating and recording incidences and compiling a file to support a SEN diagnosis. Private diagnosis can cost £1000 and many people can't afford this so they have to work with the school to get diagnosis so it takes time. So bleating on that it can't be SEN as the child hasn't yet got a diagnosis is just ignorant.

Luna I think you are talking about something you know very little about.

@Luna crying on the way home, feeling ashamed at what my child has done, agreeing with the school head that he shouldn't do that to a member of staff is not the parent of a badly behaved child. I am the parent of a child who is suffering from mental health issues and needs assessment, I am the parent of a child who struggles to maintain friendships, I am a parent of a child who prefers adult company to children because as he quotes he hates kids especially ones who get in his face.
I am so glad you do not work at my child's school.

Exclusion also gives everyone a break from the situation. Time to prepare new I interventions or ideas ready for child to return. It can mean the relationship is repaired better.

My own ds has autism. I don't mind consequence when I know school is working v with me to improve things.

@GreenTulips It was primarily used as punishment where I am. Usually because if you're suspended your parents have to sign the note, have a meeting, and the child was embarrassed because they were suspended and everyone in the school knew about it. It was not something a child aimed for, and the threat of a suspension and what that would mean, reputation and all, was enough to keep most children in line. If a child was repeatedly suspended then there would be a behavioural management/psycholgist/reward team plan instituted. But generally, if a child punched an adult in the face, stressed or not, they would be expelled on the spot. And the school Dept had this as basic policy and would back the school up. Which is great, because we in cases like that, didn't often have the parents back us up, especially if they were that type of parent, they would abuse us for daring to expel their child. It was good for the teachers and school to get some support, at least.

The sensory issues you describe, do sound as though your child could be somewhere on the spectruma, although he has some social awareness, just not appropriate awareness, in that he wants friends and wants to play with others. I wonder what his relationship with his siblings is.

I agree that the reintegration meeting should take place before your son returns to school. That’s established practice. Then you could discuss adjustments that could be put in place whilst the EP assessment and other potential assessments follow.

Could he go into school quietly at the start of the day, before the rest of the children come in, so he can have some quiet time. Perhaps he could do small jobs for the teacher.
I expect the teacher and TA are able to tell when he’s getting to boiling point. If they are, maybe he could ‘help’ the TA somewhere else or do his work in a quieter place.
It does sound as though the school have put some strategies open place. Have you been involved in devising those and has their effectiveness been evaluated?

I endorse asking school to try the ideas that Eve Dallas has suggested. Small rewards frequently might help to keep him on task and you can work with the school to negotiate bigger rewards when he does consistently well. I’ve used coins in a jar with different year groups, including secondary.

What needs to happen is a plan that everyone agrees and strategies for success and what happens if it goes wrong. You, as the parent, need to know so you can reinforce success at home too.

@yellowsun I can’t see anyone who has mentioned medicine

A diagnosis (of what?) is a rush to use the medical model of need.

Well - thank goodness Luna, you and your behaviour policies are several thousand miles away.

My DS lashes out when feeling very stressed and rejected, frightened. Can not cope with failing. He has PTSD from his pre adoption experiences. We have been working on things now for almost a year and have been told it will probably be another 2 to 3 years before his emotional age catches up.

Thank goodness he is in a UK school and not one of your schools, Luna.

@Roffle2019 do you not think that an exploration of need (sometimes leading to a diagnosis, sometimes not) can be helpful when a child is in crisis?

Sockwomble no, I believe I am offering another opinion. I think if you asked parents of my parents generation and elderly parents, you would get similar, if not harsher views. My views, based on experience, are not unusual or abnormal. Indeed, until only a couple of decades ago my views would have been in the majority.

Someone mentioned SEN is diagnosed via schools cooperating. That's true. However the tone of the posts on here give me the impression they expect schools to lead the way and to fix everything. Like they just expect schools to do everything and have all the answers and if the child cannot be diagnosed, it is all the school's fault. I understand I may have the wrong impression, but that is the impression I get, from the tone of people's posts on here. Even asking if schools can 'legally exclude' someone. Like as if how dare they! It is a school, and they should be able to suspend/exclude or expel who they wish if that child is a danger to staff and to other children. They have a duty of care also to the staff and other children as well.

I worked 1-1 as a TA with a boy (yr 6) who had ASD. The massive sensitivity to noise and a busy classroom in general caused him great distress. Many of your DS’s behaviours and triggers sound familiar.

The problem is all the flipping waiting for Cahms and other appointments makes it so hard to get appropriate support in place, meanwhile your DS is suffering. There’s some excellent and far more up to date advice and info on the thread and I really hope your DS gets the help he deserves and needs.

And to the PP saying the OPs son is out of control /badly behaved please try to remember he is unable to articulate his discomfort and upset. All he knows is that things feel wrong or ‘do his head in’ as the boy I worked with would say. He has no way to make it stop other than to do anything he can to escape the situation. When I saw the signs that the boy I worked with was feeling overwhelmed I’d suggest we went for a walk about so he could calm himself a bit. It was clear he was totally exhausted at times just coping with the environment he was in.

Hugs OP. I know just how it feels to be the parent of “that child”. My child was never excluded as our council have an inclusion policy but it was still hugely stressful. We had to move him to a new school in the end (still mainstream) as his school just couldn’t meet his needs and thankfully things are now a lot better. Sadly in our case the diagnosis (ASD) didn’t help it actually seemed to make the school more negative about him.

In your shoes I’d really be pushing for a referral and also looking to see if there’s another school that might suit him better. Maybe a mainstream school with a SN unit?

I don't see what difference the age makes, and the OP has said the child has not been diagnosed yet so you are assuming they have SEN.

He's on the school's SEN register. Put there by the trained person with responsibility for SEN in the school. Do you think that person might just know a bit more about him than you, @LunafortJest?

@LunafortJest I work in a school and I have said that the school could do more. I have done this without ‘school bashing’.
And FYI, schools do, unfortunately legally exclude. It happens often, including the practice of ‘off rolling’. So yes, parents do need to question this.

A lot of the posts resonate with me and my son’s behaviour too. He couldn’t cope with the noisy environment in the old school and it manifested itself in the bad behaviour. He’s moved to a much smaller and quieter school and it’s like night and day.

Hels20, given the tone of your posts, I thank my lucky stars I am fortunate enough to be where I am, and not where you are! No seriously you have no idea how glad I am not to be involved in UK schools. PTSD is terrible, and adopting can be traumatic for any child. But lashing out is no excuse and would be nipped in the bud where I am. 2 to 3 years? And that is just taken as accepted. Enabling. The more behaviour is excused, it just encourages it. Even a child with PTSD, with counselling, knows its not ok to lash out physically at people. There just is no personal responsibility any more. Put a label on it, and it's a-ok. Sorry, but no, in my opinion it is not ok.

@LunafortJest, you clearly know nothing about the law on responsibilities for assessing and providing for SEN in English schools, nor do you know anything about the law in exclusions or disability discrimination. I would suggest you educate yourself before commenting further.

He kicks & lashes out at you at home, too, OP (If I understand correctly). Which means even at home his emotions are overwhelming him. He's struggling with other people even in the quieter home environment. I'm not sure from what OP said that even an adult-only environment means the child won't explode. So saying "He can't handle other children at school" is not a full picture of what needs to improve.

I found reading The Explosive Child very helpful, btw. It was such a relief to find some sympathy. Offers many coping strategies.

I can only say that mine outgrew a lot of his early tendency to lash out. Time can improve things.

Even asking if schools can 'legally exclude' someone. Like as if how dare they

No, checking that the school has followed the exclusion rules and that the exclusion is warranted. Schools MUST follow the rules for all children. Exclusion should be the absolute final strategy, not the first knee jerk reaction. If a child, especially a child with SN or suspected SN, is thrown out at the first opportunity, how the hell can we be sure that child is getting the help they need? School is for ALL children, not just the well behaved ones.

There just is no personal responsibility any more

He’s 6 with likely special needs for gods sake!

Luna I qualified as a teacher nearly 30 years and your views were not considered the norm then.

Also @ItsTheGinTalking someone told me about this as a useful source of advice sossen.org.uk/getting_started.php

@Lunafortjest, the more you write, the more grateful I am that my children were never subjected to a TA with so little knowledge of children, education or disability, and so little basic empathy.

ItsTheGinTalking. It does sound very traumatic for you and I hope you can make some headway from the sound and experienced advice you've received here.

LunafortJest. Has been villified, but I think she has a general point. At so many Head Teacher conferences in recent years, teachers have complained of the increasing need to become substitute parents for children who are unprepared for school, and I recognise, as she said, some of the fearsome parents who defiantly say their children can do no wrong. Maybe what she's referring to is that the balance of power can tip in the wrong direction sometimes. When a child who is still trying to make sense of the world sees an ambiguous environment where they are confused about who is in charge, and, maybe they perceive that, in some small instances, they are in charge, they exhibit their confusion by lashing out. Maybe some well-meaning interventions cause more harm than good.

Someone has referred to previous generations and I come from that previous generation. My primary school teachers were physical bullies and were very liberal with a smack around the head and legs. We were all utterly terrified of a couple of them, one in particular and would not dare to step out of line, but often unwittingly did. The effects were felt at home. I became terrified of going to school, would wet the bed when I was 9 or 10, have nightmares etc. At school itself, I paddled along serenely and didn't let it show. Having had children and grandchildren myself I would not like to see those days return.

Good luck with your meeting on Tuesday, ItsTheGinTalking. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.