Excluded from school. Year 1 aged 6.

[ItsTheGinTalking]

I have posted in SN children but feel there may be more traffic here
Also if you feel this shouldn't be here do delete it MN as I've posted in SN. Thank you

Hi everyone
Been a while since I posted on MN. But I've never posted in this group before.
My 6 yr old child is struggling at school socially. He has a referral to cahms in, referral to Educational Pyschologist, Community Peadiateician, CFIT and a few others
He hits other children, kicks, nips, shouts.
This started at the back end of reception class. I noticed stuff at home and mentioned to school but because he didn't show the behaviour they didn't say or do anything.

Now he is terrorising the class. He has an IEP in place and does anger management with WESAIL through the local council.

Academically he is doing well and is on year 2 reading books, is brilliant at his maths and spelling. But socially is where he lets himself down as school say.

He prefers 1-1 support so will do something in class that gets him removed because he likes to sit in the headteacher or the deputy heads office because it's quiet and he has that 1-1 support.

He prefers adult company and has said many times he's hates other kids especially his age or younger.
He has been brought up with older brothers and adults.

On Friday at 2.25 I got a phone call to say could I go to school asap...He has been excluded for 1.5 days and is not allowed back till Tuesday as the 1.5 has been included with Friday

I have a reintergrating meeting at 3.15 on Tuesday when I collect him. But is there anything I need to ask or question?

TIA

@exLtEveDallas Why do you need to check? There was a time when parents TRUSTED schools, and wouldn't think to question (unless the case was not clearcut like it is here, with the child admitting he punched the TA) the school, they would back the school up. And, the child would get in bigger trouble when he got home! To even suggest 'checking'. It's just.... I don't know how to word it really. Entitlement? But that doesn't really fit with the topic. I don't know. Mistrust? Mistrust of the school? Why not trust that the school knows what they are doing, and has the child's, and the school's, best interests at heart? Why not trust and support the school? Too many parents seem to come to school to have a go at the teachers if their precious child is given so much as a detention. The trust and support parents had for school authorities (which in turn lead to children also respecting the authorities because the parents would defend their actions) is gone. Nowadays you can't do anything, you can't even give detention without being screamed at by parents.

My children knew that if they got an exclusion, I would NOT side with them. Andnot only that, but suspension would be the easy part, they would be more in trouble with me, including being grounded, than they would at school.

See, that is how it used to be done. Not like now where parents don't support and back up the school.

OP ignore that poster. They are clueless.

@AllInADay Thank you for seeing my point. You explained it better than I could. I never seem to be able to explain myself properly and I often just don't come across well.

Lunafort you don’t have a fucking clue what you’re talking about. Not a clue.

Yes Luna again you don't understand our system yet make huge assumptions.

While things do vary from county to county the vast majority of children need referrals arranged from school, it cannot be bypassed in any other way and not all schools will consider private diagnosis either (my last county didn't and called it a conflict if interest).

It's a failed system though. Schools have to recognise and refer, often with very little knowledge of special needs. Our educational psychology time for example is very under demand and we have had a 25% cut to the time we can request. We can and do have children who were identified as needing educational psychologist support in nursery (our nursery is attached to our school) and yet leave school 8 years later having never become a priority enough to access the educational psychology service.

My middle child was identified as potentially having ASD, the behaviour team suggested referring for ADHD too, it took 2 years for him to be seen for the ADHD but they think ASD is more obvious but cannot proceed with either until he has an educational psychologist assessment. My children's old school was severely underfunded and they just couldn't afford referrals or training, staff help my eldest should just learn to confirm even with a diagnosis and statement they just instead he needed to be treated like everyone else and then excluded him when he didn't cope. If you set a child up to fail then you can't blame the child for the consequences, New school and he is given support, they spend less money on him than the previous school and he has never even put a toe out of line, the difference is not throwing him into situation he cannot handle. So assembly was too loud and noisy so for several weeks he didn't go and then would go in for a minute, then sit down for a minute and then slowly build up. He eventually sat through the entire thing with no support and actually spoke in the assembly the past week. School celebrated his success. It took 4 years for that child to be diagnosed, he was told he was the naughtiest child in the school. He self harmed from 4 years old. Now, he's confident, he has friends, he caught up with his education, he's not at all disruptive, he does sometimes need to go for a walk but he's never been in trouble, ever. Good teachers are worth their weight in diamonds.

No teacher, TA or child should ever be harmed, school should be safeguarding staff and children too. No one is saying that's acceptable. But what you fail to notice or care about is the child is hurting too, he is reacting because he is hurting and school have a legal and moral responsibility to address that too. I do think exclusions have a place but actually without the right support in place all you are doing it setting the child to fail and that it not ok.

Yes just wandered in from the Daily Mail comments section.

Personally i suspect the more traditional structured schooling of the past was easier for kids like the OPs, if the teacher was of the soft but firm approach. Rules were clearer, and what happened next was always clear. Also group work was not common.
I worked with SEN kids in the past, and although some kids did lash out, it was not common. The kids with autism who lashed out were all non verbal.
6 is still very very young. But I do wonder sometimes if adults now are too accepting that lots of SEN kids lash out, and so many more lash out than perhaps would with a different approach.

Also strongly disagree that all behaviour is communication, and I think this belief leads to issues. I remember on training I went on early on for working with SEN kids being taught through role play, that sometimes kids misbehave because it is fun, and that includes SEN kids.

Unlike my TA, Luna is clearly inexperienced and hasn't got a clue what she is talking about - OP, ignore her.

Love your comments Luna. Nipping an adopted child’s behaviour “in the bud”. Oh, how I wish it was that easy. I obviously a huge failure as a parent. Huge failure.

Just a couple of things - hope I'm not repeating anyone.

Firstly, regarding the workstation. We provided one for a girl with sensory issues, and it worked well. It was at the front of the class, and we stuck a cardboard wall around it, so that she knew all her belongings were safe. We also made sure she didn't have to wander around the classroom to find anything - she had everything she required within reach.

Another experience was with a (lovely) autistic boy who screamed, shouted, punched, and generally kicked up merry hell every time we got ready to go to forest school. We thought about possible triggers, and, as a last resort, decided to ask his mum to wash the FS suit every week, to see if that had any effect. It was amazing - no more fuss at all! The point is, it was a very simple solution to the problem. Perhaps your ds doesn't like changing with the others before PE, or that his kit is dirty and he doesn't want to put it on - it would fit with his dislike of the lunch hall.

How is your ds's behaviour at break time? Can he cope with lots of children in a wide open space?

The visual timetable is really good for organisation, because it's so important that the child has a good idea of what's going to happen next. They should also be warned of changes to the curriculum well in advance. Try anything to make them feel more safe and secure.

exparrot that is absolute rubbish. I know a few people with Aspergers (HFA), 2 children included. It is NOT common for them to go around punching people in the face. Absolute rot! That is not a characteristic.

Further replies from others on here I feel, back up my opinion that there is a lot of denial and enabling, and it's not me who doesn't have a clue. Maybe my problem is I have too much of a clue, and see through bs for what it is.

^I worked with SEN kids in the past, and although some kids did lash out, it was not common. The kids with autism who lashed out were all non verbal.
6 is still very very young. But I do wonder sometimes if adults now are too accepting that lots of SEN kids lash out, and so many more lash out than perhaps would with a different approach.^

This! So much THIS!

Luna you clearly gave zero understanding of any Sen.

This struck me . And I personally have known boys who had ADHD who their mother was all 'he can't help himself'. He came to my house, I was stern but soft. He knew the rules. He behaved. He could, and he guess what - did control himself.

That's my son, he is diagnosed ASD, spd and dyspraxia and they suspect adhd too but we're waiting for assessment. When he was younger he would be very well behaved anywhere other than home. The reason for this? His anxiety was so high and he was fearful of being himself. So he kept it all in until hometime and then released it all, usually in the form of huge, violent tantrums, meltdowns etc. So please be quiet and keep the old line always trotted out "well there weren't all these autistic or adhd people in the past" to yourself. They were labelled naughty kids and failed by society and in turn, failed in life 😡

Hels20 that you think 'adopted child behaviour' is different from non adopted children basically proves my point. 'Oh, they're adopted, therefor they're stressed, therefore it is ok for them to lash out'. No. Just No. As I said enabling in neon lights.

Nobody is saying there were not kids with ADHD or autism in the past.
I do suspect that the way school days are structured now makes it harder for some of these kids. I also suspect that a lack of unstructured exercise sometimes makes things worse.

Luna the OP's posts clearly show a range of behaviour that would be consistent with a child under stress. It's not just the punch. Some autistic children fight under stress, some do flight which is often turned in upon themselves resulting in mental health problems. I agree with a pp that schools have changed and these changes are not helpful for many autistic children. Give dd a quiet class with everyone sat down and doing their work without 'fun' stuff and she would be much happier.

Luna It is not about them being adopted. It is about severe abuse and trauma that a lot of adopted kids have been through that is the issue.

Ah, she’s an expert on attachment theory as well as autism!

(Luna, i mean)

@clairemcnam I understand that point, and those children require understanding and counselling. But that does not mean accepting the behaviour.

Luna you clearly know nothing about asd, its very very common for autistic people to meltdown at home after masking all day, for children who don't know coping mechanisms yet that could come out in naughty behavior.

Agree that you do not accept the behaviour, but give lots of support and try and give kids other ways to express that trauma. But obviously that is not going to change behaviour over night. Also if the child has a lack of an attachment to any adult, they often don't care if adults are unhappy with their behaviour, and that makes it much harder.

Luna some of us are teachers and parents of children with challenging behaviour.