British IS girl has had her baby

[BrizzleMint]

She's had her baby - a son.

Cabinet minister Jeremy Wright told BBC's Andrew Marr programme that the baby's nationality was "not straightforward".

The culture secretary, who was previously attorney general, said the first priority was establishing the health of her and her baby.

So leave her in Syria then to protect the lives and liberties of UK citizens who haven’t spent the last 4 years as a member of ISIS and has no regrets.

Good point except that we woukd be acting hypocritically by doing so. There are criminals within the UK who have killed and harmed people. Possibly more than this girl as an individual has. We presume their innocence, try them, and if we find evidence above the threshold of reasonable doubt we fine, bail, jail them. She is a British Citizen and therefore automatically entitled to the same. She is asking to return home. Legally she cannot be prevented, she is entitled to undergo the same process of the law as that of say a serial rapist or killer.

Again our reputation abroad is underpinned by this. We denounce regimes who do not allow due process of their citizens. So leaving her there may be practical, but will serve to undermine that reputation.

It's not about emotion.

That’s not what an aryan is but ok. Moving on. It’s a difficult situation. My inclination would be to wait until citizenship is established for the child. She has no right to expect to be brought back (and if she does come back she should end up in jail imo). The child is in the sad position of all the children in these places. I don’t think I could justify helping this particular child but leaving others to die unless it was a British National.

Is she expecting the UK to pay for the flights too? Ferry her over here, hand her a house and benefits and probably a new name and voila. If she comes back, there is no deterrent for other people who want to go and fight. They must know there is no way back, and this has shown it’s not all glamour over there.

The child is a British citizen as his mother is. I thought that was automatic?

@findingmyfeet12 but that’s not the issue. No one is debating not taking her back. We are questioning bringing her back. If she turned up in Britain/was brought here by the will of a foreign government they couldn’t just not let her in. The question is whether the British government has a responsibility to go and collect its terrorists.

This seems a pointless argument when people don't understand the law.

She cannot be made stateless and there's no reason why any other country should take her in.

We've already been told that she won't be collected. She has to make her own way to an embassy.

Once there she would have the same rights as any other criminal.

Perhaps she can persuade Syria or another country to deport her back to the UK?

She should not be 'brought back'

Syria can deport her back
She can find her own way back
Her family can bring her back

That's my issue

What does she expect to have happen?

Its not automatic. Depends on status of the parent at the time of birth. Even just being born in tbe UK does not confer citizenship. Thatcher changed the rules on that in the early 80s. That was why some afro-carribbean people who were born here and had passports, suddenly found themselves not british when their parents/grandparents who were windrush generation had their unofficial status as British Citizens revoked. People at universiry were told they had no rights to student loans etc despite being born here.

Shaminas baby's status depends on her status and whether she was naturalised, or born here etc and one of her parents had citizenship. Its potentially complicated.

I've just watched the interview, there's just no emotion from her whatsoever she doesn't seem fussed either way or about anything.

I wonder if by doing the press and saying what she has, she will be a target or at risk from her peers or from IS now if she is forced to stay.

I think this is the big issue. It is extremely difficult to prove what crimes an individual in ISIS has committed, male or female. Yes there have been cases of people being identified in beheading videos and the like but many many more people have fought for and supported them but there is no proof of a specific crime.

In my personal view, anyone who travels out and willingly becomes part of it, is a criminal by default. We have in our own country the joint enterprise law which has seen teenagers being sent to prison for murder, for being involved in stabbings even though they didn’t actually wield the knife. If you apply that principle here (as I think it should be) then she and all the others like her are guilty of many crimes.

I've just had a look at the FCO travel advice for Syria

It includes:

"The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advise against all travel to Syria. British nationals in Syria should leave by any practical means. Consular support is not available in Syria. The UK has suspended all services of the British Embassy in Damascus and all diplomatic and consular staff have been withdrawn from Syria. British nationals requiring assistance should make their way to a neighbouring country where the UK has a consular presence."

So she is being treated in exactly the same way as all other Brits, in that she can only expect assistance when she reaches a third country.

Other countries might choose to retrieve their nationals, but that does not mean event country has to do so

She would be at huge risk if she came back he’d, wouldn’t she? If she wasn’t imprisoned, she would have to have a new identity - surely she is a big target and her face has been all over the news. She’s in danger wherever she goes. I don’t think the things she has said - having no regrets, wanting to see her husband again, thinking we should all had a lot of sympathy for her - will have gone over well at all with many of us. What a monstrous mess she has made of her life.

Why should we be burdened with the child?

What if it's a British child who had no say in where it was born and what it's parents' crimes are?

I thought it had already been established that she has to make her own way to a neighbouring country to find an embassy to help her?

Yes that has been established and, emotive as it is, the fact she has a newborn baby shouldn’t change that.

This may all be moot. Apparently the camp she is in is run by the Kurds and although they are allowed to move between camps none of the refugees are allowed to leave. One journo on the radio said it's really a sort of unofficial holding cell. So even if she had wanted to leave earlier she would not have been able to and I suspect that the only way she'll be able to leave now is if someone of reasonable clout puts pressure to bear.

I cannot see her making it to 'another country' with no assistance and a child in tow.

It's a tough one for me but I do think she should be brought back to the uk and imprisoned for her crimes and the child should be adopted by family or someone here. The baby is an innocent and just basic humanity should not allow a baby to suffer because if it parents choices.

Also we can't have our country raging about deporting offenders here and sending them back home but we don't want our own back, slightly hypercritical.

It's too risky to send in British personnel to get her out - seems fair enough.

It's sad that the baby is there but he's with his mother and there seems no other solution.

If my family thought I'd been brainwashed/groomed etc my parents and siblings would risk their own lives to go and try to get me out. Her family is expecting everyone else to help her regardless of the risk to others.

Maybe her defiant, arrogant behaviour is because she possibly knows ISIS will be monitoring her on tv and she doesn't want to seem as though she is begging UK for safe haven?
Is she now a target?
Lots of ISIS supporters in UK might linebto take a crack at her for lettingnthe side down.
Also, 19 year olds are it noted for their humility or I sight into bad decisions. It must be a devastating internal battle for her to plead to come home and in doing so, admit she has probably worried her parents out of their minds, picked the wrong side and trashed her reputation for the rest of her life

Bet she's on Love Island next Year.

She would be at huge risk if she came back he’d, wouldn’t she? If she wasn’t imprisoned, she would have to have a new identity - surely she is a big target and her face has been all over the news

Yes. And I really dont think the media have acted terribly responsibly with this story. They have been whipping people up even more. I found myself taking the bait. It's been rolling coverage on at least one radio station since thursday and some of the comments are beyond the pale. The facts are being overlooked in favour of emotion.

It leaves a slightly nasty taste in my mouth. Can't quite put my finger on why. Maybe its because its a young girl and I'm a woman. which really shouldn't mean anything but somehow it does. Shes easy fodder for the media.

findingmyfeet where have here family said this? So they have spoken then?

Of course the overarching question with her, and many others like her, is why did they flock to this kind of life? A life she does say that she enjoyed and was everything she hoped it would be? What was lacking for all the many Europeans that joined? Yes a few went and regretted it but many more embraced it. It’s an issue that needs to be addressed or this will just continue. ISIS as they are may be close to defeat but they aren’t just going to disappear forever.

I honestly can't believe anyone is sympathising with her or thinks she deserves any sort of safety She deserves the worst of the worst...