If the woman wants to keep the baby and the man doesn't, who, in your opinion takes precedence?

[bearfood]

Just that really. Wondering what people's opinions are. Woman wants to keep it, man doesn't, neither will change their mind. What's the solution? Just looking for peoples thoughts really. Am very fragile so please be kind. So as not to drip feed, relationship of 6 months, pregnancy unplanned, couple love each other but can't agree and will probably break up if she keeps it (from what he has said). Pregnancy is 8 weeks along. Man wanted the baby at first then changed his mind. Woman has always wanted it from day one.

It sometimes seems from MN threads that women who decided to continue pregnancy in such circumstances did not consider that they would probably continue to have deal with the reluctant father for the next 18+ years. It's just something to bear in mind.

Her body, her choice.

He's been harassed for money when he said from day one he didn't want the child.

Well apart from the fact that you have said he has managed to avoid paying any maintenance, what else do you suggest? It sounds like you are saying that the right of a man to ejaculate without consequence is more important than the right of a child to be supported by those who created them. Surely that isn't what you meant?

Adding my voice to the many, many others saying it's your daughter's body, and therefore her choice. I do hope you show her this thread.

Sending 💐to you, OP.

Always, 100% non negotiable, the woman's choice. The father's 100% tough shit. And any man who puts a woman in that position is abusive.

Anyone who has an abortion for a man, when they strongly didn’t want to, is unlikely to have a positive future with that man. It’s worth thinking about.

If you aren’t really keen to have a baby and think the timing isn’t right FOR YOU then fine to end it, and there might be a future with this man.....but you need to be in agreement about abortion.

Surprise pregnancy early in a relationship is very likely to put pressure on a new relationship - it puts pressure on established ones, never mind new ones. One person maybe up for baby and other not = big stress on relationship. Abortion or baby will put pressure on if both are not in agreement. Abortion or birth is likely to cause stress even if both are in agreement. It’s why ver quick and unplanned pregnancy generally is best avoided in terms of relationship effects. Yes, some survive early surprise pregnancy but very many don’t and yes many would fail even without it, but some would succeed without this extreme early pressure. However, it has happened and relationship will be and is under stress and op must decide first what she wants to do about pregnancy.

For others, at early stages of relationships - id say that if you want to have a baby with a partner, just be very careful to do all you can to avoid a surprise pregnancy and wait a while. You are so much more likely to have a successful relationship with a child if you give the relationship a bit of time. So many people don’t seem to realise this. If it’s too late, it’s too late......but many people can make choices to avoid this heart breaking scenario which op finds herself in.

She may well find herself with a very beloved baby.....great! But she’s like that baby and the father to want it to. Not everyone wants that, but many people do.

She doesn't want a termination! She does not want this procedure on her body! So that's the decision made. People should not have medical procedures on their bodies that they don't want. She's 18, she knows that not have a termination means she has a baby .

MakeAHouseAHome is onto something. Now, we also have to make pregnancy, childbirth and breast-feeding 'fair'. So it has to be extremely painful for men, endanger their lives, permanently alter their bodies, have the chance of incontinence, depression, tears to their genitals, cutting, needles in their spine, surgery, hemorrhage, high blood pressure, loss of sex drive, piles, weight gain, bleeding, infected, feverish breasts (not sure how we'd do that one), starting DV (happens a lot in pregnancy), loss of earnings, sometimes psychosis and did I mention death?

Some kind of lottery where men are assigned to each group? Or maybe each man gets the exact same symptoms as their baby's mother? It's a pickle alright, but we have to make it 'fair' after all. And it can't be voluntary, because it won't be for women.

I wonder what would go through the mind of the daughter's boyfriend were he to read this thread?
this is my position as outlined by @Ribbonsonabox
The mans choice is whether or not to ejaculate inside a woman... If he does that then he accepts the risk that the woman may fall pregnant and then it will out of his hands

She's 18, she knows that not have a termination means she has a baby

She may also have an idealised view of what that means, and it's highly unlikely she has the means to house or support the child without imposing on her own parents. Whilst I fully agree that it's her choice not his, she does need to fully face up the the responsibilities that come with a decision to go ahead with bringing a child into the world at this time.

She's 18, not 14. And the OP, her parent, is supportive .

Woman's choice.

I'd like to add that I had a termination at 18 because it was seemingly "the right thing to do" and still regret this sometimes nearly 30 years on.

No vagina, no vote.

NothingOnTheTelly

Your comments don’t make sense. It was blatantly obvious that my statement about poor outcomes for the children of teen mothers was for the group as a whole so there is no need for you to explain averages to me. I’m sure everyone understands that there will be teen Mums and children of teen Mums who don’t experience any problems.

She's 18, not 14. And the OP, her parent, is supportive

I wonder how supportive though? Clearly the woman in question will have a very different life to the one that she envisaged? Is she still at school or at uni? Was she planning on going? Is the OP planning on childcare while her daughter studies or goes to work? When she goes out? Is she ready to have a baby in her home again? A toddler? I know that all of these practicalities can be sorted but they should be considered by the OP and her daughter. Having a baby is such a huge commitment and it does massively change your life. I can sort of understand the father's fears (not how he is expressing them). Maybe he better understands the impact that having a baby will have on their lives.

She's 18, not 14. And the OP, her parent, is supportive

At 18 her career is not established and her adult life is just beginning. Her parent sounds supportive, currently her focus appears to be on the daughter/boyfriend dynamic. Does she really want to give up her own plans and freedom to facilitate her daughter becoming a teenage mother? Is that a mature and reasonable expectation from the daughter? I don't think it is.

Just to answer a couple of questions...I'm aware I'm missing loads out but really really appreciate the support and advice on this thread...the childcare issue is one that weighs heavily on my mind. Dd is in an apprenticeship role and this will end just after baby is due. I work full time in quite a demanding role and will not be able to provide childcare during the day, but would be happy to if dd could find an evening job doing bar work or waitressing (have a couple of friends with restaurant businesses who I'm sure would happily help if they could).
Not overly keen on having a toddler around again as my youngest starts school this year, but on the bright side, it's not like it's been years and years since I had one around!

How does your DD see the practicalities working out, OP? Hopefully she has thought of a plan that isn’t dependent on you doing full time childcare?

What would happen at the end of her apprenticeship if there was no baby? Can she delay whatever it would be?

@Megs4x3 plenty of people abstain from sexual Intercourse. I didn't have sexual Intercourse with my dh until I'd arranged a suitable contraceptive that worked after having dd because I didn't want to be pregnant.

Friend and her dh didn't want kids, they both used contraception but what with being adults and not a twat her dh always said if their contraceptive choices both failed he would support her choice because a pregnancy has zero impact in his body at all. There's times they both abstained too, like when she was ill and throwing up and chance the pill would fail etc.

Once conception has happened a man doesn't get a say what happens to someone's else's body. This one didn't use condoms, he ejaculates inside a woman he knows he could create a baby, that's exactly how biology works, not sure why you're telling me it doesn't work that way. A man can not end a woman's pregnancy unless by force or manipulation and any man doing that is a cunt.

Many a men have also "trapped" women by getting them pregnant by poking holes in condoms, taking condom off without the woman's consent, raping them. If men are worried women lying about being in the pill and they don't want to be a Dad all the more reason to use their own contraceptives choice and not ejaculate inside her.

It is interesting that one of the few things that affects only the woman's body, that only women risk their health for, that the one thing Amal's can't do or control due to biology, and there's people moaning its "not fair" and that it needs balancing or to be made equal by allowing men to go round getting women pregnant and washing hands of their responsibility or by being able to force a woman into an unwanted medical
procedure.

Men should never have the right to demand the person he chose to have sex with has an abortion and it's disgusting someone has suggested that.

@NameNotImportant by ‘biology doesn’t work that way’ I meant that many people, especially the young, don’t plan a pregnancy in the way that you and your friend do/did. Hormones and physical desire take over and many young men think that a woman being on the pill is enough. (It is more effective than a condom so it’s a reasonable belief.

(The idea that more effective birth control should have been developed for men is another conversation and no doctor will give a 21-year-old man ‘the snip’ as someone suggested, on ethical grounds and because it’s not reversible.)

I never, for a moment, suggested anything other than the belief that the woman, always, makes the decisions about her own body. I have tried to explain, not excuse, why some people behave the way they do. Something that I find astounding in these discussions is how quickly people lose sight of the fact that controlling pregnancy from the point of view of stopping it or halting it artificially is a relatively modern concept and by no means 100% infallible.

People don’t behave perfectly and we have to live in a world that isn’t as perfect as we would like it to be, much less does everyone live by our own personal rules.

The young man - and he is young - described on this thread is behaving appallingly and there is a good chance he will live to regret it. I never disputed that.

One way or another he has to live with his girlfriend’s decision. I never disputed that either.

What I do dispute is calling him a waste of space now and for evermore because he is shocked, panicked and under extreme stress. He’s not the only man who has behaved in this way and he won’t be the last. That doesn’t make it right, any more than some women’s appalling behaviour is right either.

The OP is dealing with the situation as it is, not as she would like it to be. Her question was ‘does my DD have the right to make all the decisions about this pregnancy’? My answer was ‘yes - her body her choice. In an ideal world, the father supports her whatever she decides. Sometimes, the father is panicked and says things he shouldn’t. Not every relationship fails to weather that storm.’

At no point did I say that putting pressure on a woman to terminate a pregnancy was the right thing to do.

She is lucky to have you

Op her body, her life, her choice!

You say she currently has an apprenticeship I'm assuming that she should earn semi reasonable money once qualified. Will that enable her to pay for childcare?

Ideally she doesn't want to give up her career just as she's getting it off the ground.