Just to put my mind at rest about self ID.

[CaptainKirkssparetupee]

What will be put in place to stop a peodophile /fetishist sitting in a female swimming changing room watching people undress?
I'd like facts rather than "I would think" and "i assume"

There is currently law which means a male in a female space can be challenged.

The facts they have posted are fine they just differ from other sets you are posting
They are not fine, they are nonsense.

The trans activist hashtag is #nodebate. Their critics demand a debate. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. We have nothing to hide. We want it all out in the open.

Self-ID is a disaster for women and girls. The government appears entirely content to remove all single sex protections for the benefit of an MRA lobby group, which just goes to show how much they care about our safety and privacy.

We need sex segregated spaces because men commit 98% of sex crime and 90% of violent crime, and transwomen commit such crimes at the same rate as other males.

Mixed sex facilities are unsafe for women. 90% of sexual assaults in changing rooms occur in mixed sex facilities.

Accusations'of transphobia are used to silence criticism and analysis, because TRAs know their claims won't withstand scrutiny.

However they can't use their usual tactics to silence women here because of Talk Guidelines. That's why MN is one of the only places online where women are discussing this freely.

There's increasing interest in the issue. That's why so many MN visitors are accessing FWR. 177,000 visitors in June 2018 compared to 15,000 in the same month in 2016.

MN faces relentless pressure from TRAs because if they can't shut us down people might listen to us - and they can't afford that.

And the answer to your initial question, OP?

What will be put in place to stop a peodophile /fetishist sitting in a female swimming changing room watching people undress?

Absolutely nothing.

Thank you Prawnofthepatriarchy that answers everything.

Self-ID is never going to be - could never be - challenged because as someone's "gender identity" is entirely subjective there is no possible way anyone could prove someone was lying about it.

Creating law and policy using an entirely subjective measurement is plain bonkers. Can you imagine handing out driving licences on the basis that applicants identified as competent drivers?

It's worrying me so much prawn

My local swimming pool has unisex changing, hasn’t been an issue

I wouldn't use it. So. I problem for me 🙄

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

And yet fewer than 50% of changing rooms are unisex.

You say there hasn't been an issue, Wonkypalmtree, but how would you know? It's not as if they're going to publicize incidents if they can help it.

The fact remains that unisex facilities are more dangerous for women.

A swimming pool I sometimes take the kids to also has unisex changing, and I no longer get changed there. I wear my swimmers under my clothes, and go into the ladies toilets in the main section of the leisure centre and get changed in a toilet stall.

The first (and last) time I went in there there were no women in there and three men walking around totally nude, so I turned straight around and left. I've been there twice more and the only women I've seen going in there have gone in with male partners and family, so probably they feel safer and it's easier to supervise the kids together. I'm sure that the management of the leisure centre would also say they've had no issues to report, probably because the unisex changing room is effectively a male and women-guarded-by-male-partner changing room now.

clicky link.

Your account ties in with what a lot of women are saying, Xiaoxiong. Women who feel unsafe or uncomfortable are very unlikely to make a scene. We just stop using those facilities.

Some women are particularly vulnerable to being shoved out of spaces once men are allowed to use them too. Women whose faith means they can't use unisex facilities, women who have been traumatized by men in various ways - and there are a lot of such women, sadly.

The leisure centre will notice fewer women using the changing rooms but will they understand why?

I've given up swimming as one by one, all the pools within driving distance of me have been refurbed and unisex changing put in. I occasionally use a local hotel instead, but the pool is tiny and its expensive.

Changing rooms are frequently unisex in France

Not in my expérience. (I have lived here for several years)

Just in case it's relevant, the rate of sexual attacks, including rape, in France is on the rise.

http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/CTS12Sexuall_violence.xls]

Nothing will physically stop men going into female spaces. They already do, and that is where abuse already happens.

What will change though is that under self ID any woman made to feel uncomfortable by a perceived male presence will no longer be empowered to speak up about that to protect themselves, as they could legally be prosecuted for a hate crime.

@Wonkypalmtree - it's alright Jack, eh?

Have you got a daughter who might not want to share a shower with a 15 year old with a penis at guide camp?

Have you got an elderly female relative who might be distressed at what they perceive to be a male-bodied person giving them intimate care in their nursing home?

Would you prefer someone to do your smear test who has had one themselves? Would you just like the choice to be able to say actually, I'd prefer someone else?

If a female relative or friend of yours is unfortunate enough to end up in prison, do you think that they should be safe from rapists with a working penis while they're incarcerated?

Maybe none of this is relevant to you though.

Self-ID consultation is open until 19 October.

Guidance from Fair Play for Women and from Woman's Place.

Would this be consultation Stonewall are getting children from all over the world under 11 to fill in, telling them they will be a hero and offering rewards?

I'm sure children who still believe in Father Christmas have the ability to fully understand what they are doing, and this is certainly not an unethical way to skew results.

Nothing dodgy about this at all.

Kids will never be in danger will they?

However they can't use their usual tactics to silence women here because of Talk Guidelines. That's why MN is one of the only places online where women are discussing this freely.

And they are all over this board in particular like a rash. They are monitoring every post. I had something removed within minutes of posting, and as we all know, the woke MNers have all blocked the board so it wasn't them...

Infiltration.

I'm going to bring up a point and ask a question that has been asked several times in threads like these (and even once on this thread I see) but it always gets ignored.

Transwomen have been using women's toilets for years. It is not a new right they have suddenly magically gained like some of the woke right on people like to think it is. It is something transwomen have always done and self ID won't change a thing for old school transsexuals.

What I would like to know is if self ID goes ahead then what is stopping a violent transphobic man self identifying as a woman and assaulting/harrassing/intimidating a trans woman in the female loss instead?

I get that there is not and never has been anything stopping a violent man from simply walking into the female loos anyway. However the difference is that we have always been able to call them out or complain to secutity/management (depending on where said public loo is) and have them kicked out. However with self ID we will no longer have that protection and as a result transwomen will no longer have that protection either.

If a woman or transwoman complains about an obvious male bodied person in the female space then all said male bodied person has to do is say 'I identify as a woman'. Once those words are uttered it will suddenly be the woman or transwoman who is in the wrong.

Do people not get that this whole thing is terrible for harmless transwoman who have been quietly getting on with their lives for years?

Do people not get that this whole thing is terrible for harmless transwoman who have been quietly getting on with their lives for years?

A lot of transexuals actually do get this, they are ignored and drowned out by other transgender voices.

Another point I have brought up in threads like these is how we live in a society which constantly tells girls and women that we need to keep ourselves safe and not put ourselves in risky situations.

We live in a society in which women are constantly blamed and held partially responsible for being assaulted. What was she doing there, why did she go with him, what did she expect, what was she wearing, was she drunk, etc.

We live in a society where women have it drilled into us from an early age that we must take responsibility for our personal safety and not to put ourselves in terms way.

So with that in mind, I'm picturing a situation where a woman walks into a deserted toilet in a train station and she sees the only person in there with her is someone who is clearly male. She doesn't feel comfortable being there and her spidey senses are tingling. She has two choices. She can either:

A) Listen to her instincts and walk out. Of course the consequence of this is having people judge her and label her transphobic or possibly a man hater. Or perhaps if nobody notices her leave as it's pretty quiet and she doesn't tell anyone then she might feel guilty and tell herself she was being silly and transphobic.

B) She ignores her instincts and uses the toilet anyway.

Now if she goes with option B then chances are she'll be fine. However the male bodied person may also be an oppurtunistic predator and he may attack her.

Now if the worst case scenerio happens and he does attack her then what do you think the general reaction will be? Do you think people will be sympathetic? Or do you think it's far more likely that people will judge her and hold her partially responsible for what happened to her just like what people have been doing to women since time began?

I guarantee that the first question out of anyone mouth when they hear of her attack will be something along the lines of "what did she expect to happen when she used the toilet when a strange man was there in this situation?" and the old "women need to stop putting themselves in risky situations."