My kids were taken away from me by SS for 5 years - AMA

[InABetterPlaceNow]

I might regret this! NC for obvious reasons.

Just thought it might be helpful for those worried, those going through it, etc.

@NoPrivateSpy

OP, so heartbreaking and incredibly brave and inspiring all wrapped up in one. You sound like an incredible mother, you really do.

Thank you so much for sharing. It's really opened my eyes to how it easy to get into an abusive 'hole' that you can't see out of.

Do you have any contact with your Ex's family or have you cut all ties?

I genuinely worry that I might have friends experiencing abuse and I might not read the signs. Are they any clear red flags to look out for in your opinion?

Thank you!

I was trying to not be too outing, but I think with linking to some local services that boat might have passed, plus all the supportive posts have helped me feel a bit more willing to be “out there”.

My kids were placed with my ex’s dad and stepmum. So I’m still in touch with them, plus some immediate family as they no longer have anything to do with ex. My ex’s mum still send cards for all bdays and Xmas to the girls (via ex’s dad) and tried to connect a few years ago. I discussed it with the LA to get her their thoughts and they said had they really wanted to be in touch more directly with my kids they would have contacted the LA. So I left it. I still have the letter and I mull it over from time to time, but ex and his mum are close and I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the risk.

For signs, I’d say them becoming more distant / closed off than usual. This could also be a sign of depression! Presenting an overly perfect seeming life. Always needing to check in with the partner for things that probably don’t need to be checked.

A good “test” might be to find and article / news story related to domestic abuse and say “Gosh, this looks so tough to deal with”. Then judge if they start to close off, etc.

Obviously if there’s severe abuse there might be clear signs of physical harm! I’d take a more direct (though gentle) approach to find out what happened.

It can be really hard to tell though. Woman in this position are scared to disclose because 1) they might be told they are being stupid and to suck it up or 2) they will be told to LTB which will be terrifying and overwhelming. Just be the best friend you can, and if you have real concerns and you can gently get them to open up, have some resources to hand to offer them. Offer for them to your your laptop / phone to get some support so they don’t have to cover their tracks at home.

@SwanShaped… you asked why women don’t put their children first. Well sometimes they are…

If you leave, you won’t win in court at trying to prevent access to the abusive father. So do you stay and try and protect them. Or leave and hand them over to their toxic father half the time, unprotected. And I’m not just talking about physical abuse. Who do you think they turn their toxic emotional bullying onto?

Family law prohibits mothers from protecting their children from abusive fathers. Fact. Let that sink and and then ask your question again.

Can you help me? I'm a social worker who would like to know if there is any one thing that really helped you understand the concerns raised? Or was it not until you lost your children?

Thanks for clarifying, OP. Gosh, that sounds complicated but I'm glad their grandfather is made of different stuff. Where does his abusive behaviour come from, I wonder?

That's really useful advice, I'd never thought of offering my phone but makes total sense.

@Iamstuckhere I’ve been to family court lots of times and know the difficulties that women face in preventing contact with a perp.

@Iamstuckhere here here. People just cannot comprehend this simple statement of fact. Judges are human and make mistakes but sometimes they even identify with the perpetrators of abuse than their victims and instead of acting in the best interests of the child, they act in the best interests of abusers. It is so common.

It is so common should say it is not uncommon

[quote Iamstuckhere]@SwanShaped… you asked why women don’t put their children first. Well sometimes they are…

If you leave, you won’t win in court at trying to prevent access to the abusive father. So do you stay and try and protect them. Or leave and hand them over to their toxic father half the time, unprotected. And I’m not just talking about physical abuse. Who do you think they turn their toxic emotional bullying onto?

Family law prohibits mothers from protecting their children from abusive fathers. Fact. Let that sink and and then ask your question again.[/quote]
I'm so sorry you've had this experience. It was a massive fear of mine that he'd end up with shared (or even full!) custody if I left. At least if I was with him, I could keep an eye on things.

The social workers (after removal) said this would never have been the case, but everything I've read of other people's experiences seem to say otherwise. So many of the women I met on my journey were having to deal with exactly that.

It comforts me in some way that I was probably right on that front, even though it meant we eventually both lost them. Long term, for me, it has worked out well as he will never be allowed them unsupervised. Or at least that's what I've been promised. Time will tell on that front.

It's definitely a part of the system that needs to be looked at and changed. I think many more woman would be able to leave without it getting as extreme as my case if they knew they would be fully supported and not expected to share custody with an abuser who at best case would use the kids as a way to continue the abuse, and at worst turn that abuse on the kids

@Mayhemmumma

Can you help me? I'm a social worker who would like to know if there is any one thing that really helped you understand the concerns raised? Or was it not until you lost your children?

This is really tricky. Each case is really different. And I struggle over saying I didn't understand the concerns, because I think I did, but there felt like so many other concerns to worry about in leaving so it wasn't as clear cut as it might seem.

Helping a woman access woman's aid for sure. The courses they provide, helping you understand the cycle of abuse, creating safety plans etc are invaluable.

I think it's also really important to spend time with the woman herself and build a relationship. This was missed massively with my previous interactions with the services. The focus was on him, or is as a couple. That being said, they might not be able to trust you enough due to the reasons I've stated throughout the thread. It was far easier for me to work with them when I didn't have anything else to lose which is awful.

It also needs to be made really clear when signing off a case that it's not because there aren't concerns, and if there is EVER another referral even a small one, then it might push things to the edge of court action. Again, this didn't happen with me and I thought the fact we were signed off meant things really weren't that bad. Things had actually felt like they'd improved a bit by the time of the last referral.

@NoPrivateSpy

Thanks for clarifying, OP. Gosh, that sounds complicated but I'm glad their grandfather is made of different stuff. Where does his abusive behaviour come from, I wonder?

That's really useful advice, I'd never thought of offering my phone but makes total sense.

You're welcome! Yup I think it's always pretty complicated!

Perhaps the difference is if someone does right by their DC and leaves the abusive partner they never come to SS attention, so there's nothing on record to say the abusive ex is abusive and shouldn't have the DC.

[quote SwanShaped]@Iamstuckhere I’ve been to family court lots of times and know the difficulties that women face in preventing contact with a perp.[/quote]
It definitely something that needs improving, though I don't know what the answer is.

[quote Muttly]@Iamstuckhere here here. People just cannot comprehend this simple statement of fact. Judges are human and make mistakes but sometimes they even identify with the perpetrators of abuse than their victims and instead of acting in the best interests of the child, they act in the best interests of abusers. It is so common.[/quote]
The whole system is very human, much more so than I thought. So much depends on who you get assigned to your case (or the Judge you happen to get, the lawyers involved, etc). The abusers can also be very charming.

Again, I wish I had an answer on how things could be changed to help woman in this situation more. I'm sorry you have the experience to know this.

We had ss involvement and I agree work with them, not against them even when their input isnt helpful.

*The whole system is very human, much more so than I thought. So much depends on who you get assigned to your case (or the Judge you happen to get, the lawyers involved, etc). The abusers can also be very charming.

Again, I wish I had an answer on how things could be changed to help woman in this situation more. I'm sorry you have the experience to know this*

Thankfully not directly me OP, but my SIL has had this with my utterly abusive DB. He has followed her around a couple of court jurisdictions trying to get access to their children. The latest being the UK courts.

I also don’t know what the answer is, apart from less of a presumption that it’s in the best interests of a child to have contact with a dad. Like you say, if a man can abuse his partner then he can abuse his kids. In fact, he already is.

[quote Iamstuckhere]@SwanShaped… you asked why women don’t put their children first. Well sometimes they are…

If you leave, you won’t win in court at trying to prevent access to the abusive father. So do you stay and try and protect them. Or leave and hand them over to their toxic father half the time, unprotected. And I’m not just talking about physical abuse. Who do you think they turn their toxic emotional bullying onto?

Family law prohibits mothers from protecting their children from abusive fathers. Fact. Let that sink and and then ask your question again.[/quote]
I'm assuming from your post and your username you are going through something like this. Are you able to prove/report any of the abuse?

@Ifyoudontlikeitdosomethingelse
Yes I am in that situation.
Yes I’ve tried everything. GP, school, children’s centre, women’s aid, police, MASH, workplace EAP. The list goes on. There’s no way out while keeping the children safe. None at all.

[quote Iamstuckhere]@Ifyoudontlikeitdosomethingelse
Yes I am in that situation.
Yes I’ve tried everything. GP, school, children’s centre, women’s aid, police, MASH, workplace EAP. The list goes on. There’s no way out while keeping the children safe. None at all.[/quote]
Oh @Iamstuckhere sometimes on Mumsnet you can feel desperation in someone's message. And I know they say don't get too invested but there was something about your message that stuck with me today.

I'm sorry to hear you have no way out. Sounds like you have tried all the avenues going. I wish I could do or say something that would magically make it all OK!

I feel there must be a way... I hope something comes along soon.

Are you certain he would want a relationship with the children if you left? What kind of state is he in? Is there wider family who you can confined in? Can they help?

[quote Iamstuckhere]@Ifyoudontlikeitdosomethingelse
Yes I am in that situation.
Yes I’ve tried everything. GP, school, children’s centre, women’s aid, police, MASH, workplace EAP. The list goes on. There’s no way out while keeping the children safe. None at all.[/quote]
That sounds terrible, and like you've been badly let down so far. Do you think you could start a post with as much background information as you feel able to give and link it here? Or give a link if you already have? Perhaps some of us to try to give you some more ideas on what you can try. I just don't want your post to get lost within this thread, and you might get some more traffic and therefore support in another area of the forum (relationships perhaps?).

I don't have a magic wand (I so wish I did) but there's lots of knowledge people who might be able to suggest something you've not thought of

As it happens, a major new article was published on just this.

I'm not brave enough to post in AIBU or somewhere higher traffic, but I absolutely believe it and thought it might be helpful to recent posters to know this is being seen my mainstream news. Hopefully it prompts a chance, and therefore the chance for woman to escape earlier:

apple.news/Am_G6FwK4RSyrpNd-Z6D6yA

That article is very upsetting.

@SwanShaped

That article is very upsetting.

It is, but I think there is so much truth in it. When I was planning an escape, I very much saw that he would end up with custody. It was only when they were removed and because of who we had for workers that I ended up in the position I am now.

While I'm thankful of how things worked out for me, it came with a lot of pain. I was told (as per the article) I was too traumatised to be able to look after my kids. I've thankfully proved above and beyond that wasn't the case. However, I'm lucky I got the chance to do so. Many woman aren't, I think.

The part about the child clinging to their mum was triggering too. In the early days, my youngest would do this. My grandma still talks about it now. She had to be dragged away. No wonder she still, 7 years later, has separation issues.

This thread wasn't meant to be about that. What happened to me felt like penance for not knowing what I didn't know, and not believing services would have supported me. It felt like a gamble though, his word against mine, and he convinced me 75% of the time.

All I can hope for is that articles like this flag up the flaws in the system and mean a lot more families will be helped on the future.

Yeah that bit about the child was the worst. It’s just trauma upon trauma. I’ve read a bit about cults and the similarities with DV. The brainwashing tactics, which you describe so clearly. Can you recognise yourself from back then, or does it seem like a different person?

Thank you for doing this thread. You are such a strong person. People who have never been in a DV relationship don’t understand how hard it is to leave.

The information about courses is really helpful. I am going to share some of them with the ladies in my support group (we have already done all of women’s aid courses).