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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

238 replies

Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 19:34

Help!

DS who is ridiculously clever, 18 and knows everything has been, along with DD (16) (Alsoclever but prepared to admit to not knowing everything) arguing amicably with me on and off all day.

Both of them were arguing that women should be free to choose to be prostitutes / porn stars / rent out their wombs.

I disagreed vehemently because we can't have laws that allow exploitation of the most vulnerable. Plus, these (particularly the first two) make women commodities for men.

Any clear arguments I can use? Links? Sources.

DS - who is gay - didn't see that if prostitution was so desirable a job, then men would do it. He also didn't see that consent is not really consent if you are vulnerable or being groomed / exploited. His life has been quite comfy. DD - no real life experience, didn't get that, as women, we are often seen as vessels for carrying / entering and that a penis in your mouth / cunt / bum is very different from just being physically close with someone who you don't fancy.

Both of them insisted that porn is watched by lots of women and that porn star is a desirable job for some and that porn stars are safe.

I gave it my all but really do want them to SEE!! Their generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex so selling it is no big deal.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 29/12/2018 19:39

I'd ask why they think other generations are "uptight" about sex? What are they basing that massive assumption on? Being anti-porn and anti-prostitution isn't the same as being anti-sex.

Did they think that no woman would ever be in a situation where they could be exploited? That seems naive.

53rdWay · 29/12/2018 19:43

Do they think we should also scrap all employment laws, so that people can be free to choose to work 90 hour weeks/for £1 an hour/under unsafe conditions?

RebelWitchFace · 29/12/2018 19:44

I've been there as the teen ,young woman.
The only thing that really and truly opened my eyes was life experiences and horrific stories that made me realise that "choice" is an illusion and even if there is true choice for the very few,it doesn't justify the abuse,torture, exploitation, kidnapping ,murder of the many.

Exceptionallyeccentric · 29/12/2018 19:46

Discuss the risks of pregnancy and childbirth.
Then Ask them, outside of a family arrangement, if they think financially well off women take the risks for poorer women to have a child.

Original poster
Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 19:47

Interesting about childbirth risks. I think they both assume it is pretty easy so that is a very good point.

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 29/12/2018 19:53

Ask them how they’d feel if you, their mum, decided to do porn. Ask them if they, as males, would consent to do really hardcore porn. If not, why not?

Ask them how they’d feel if bought organs were as common as surrogacy and they were under economic pressure to give up a kidney. Ask them why we don’t have paid blood donation and paid organ donation.

Ask them to think about what choices are truly free. Are any choices free? What limits their choices ? What limits the choices of a poor man born in a slum in Karachi? What limits the choices of a poor girl born in slum in India?

At the end of the day you can only explain to them. They’re young - and sometimes you need to see and experience stuff to truly get it.

You won’t change their minds with one argument. But with a steady drip drip of commentary on the news, history and current affairs you might.

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/12/2018 19:54

Yes show them the work of some of the charities that work with obstetric fistula

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 19:57

myfatarse

Ds1 and his boyfriend were having the same discussion with me

Not so much ds1 as he knows me

What seemed to work was me asking them if it was a perfectly good job if they would be happy if it was seen as a career choice for them , their sisters or mothers

And if it were seen as a mainstream job if the unemployed were forced to do it

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 19:58

Sorry, i should say we didn't discuss surrogacy

Original poster
Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 19:59

That article is brilliant and well written and covers everything. They are out partying tonight but have e-mailed it to them.

Neither of them has been preyed on by men, as yet although DS has protected female friends on occasion. While I don't want that for them, it might make them see more clearly the kind of men that want access to women forced into prostitution.

OP posts:
GoulashSoup · 29/12/2018 19:59

Will see if I can find the actual stats, but if I remember correctly surrogacy has something like 30% risk of pre-eclampsia (compared with 4% in rest of the population) thought to be due to the fact that that the baby (and placenta) are completely alien to the maternal immune system.

I will try to find the stats, but it is more risky than a normal pregnancy (still a massively risky thing to do).

OrgyofSausages · 29/12/2018 20:00

They are 18 and 16, and by your own admission their lives have been "quite comfy".

Get them to watch the episode in the recent channel 5 series about sex work which focussed on prostitution. It would make someone with a heart of stone weep. I'll try and look up a link.

Original poster
Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 20:03

I made the point about organ donation / purchase and was told it was "different" and rightly illegal. Both have jobs in hospitality in the holidays and were arguing that giving their time and labour to Was dishes or other menial jobs was also selling your body.

I laughed. A lot. Apparently miners had a really terrible job. I pointed out those jobs were well paid and had status, unlike prostitution.

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 20:08

Both have jobs in hospitality in the holidays and were arguing that giving their time and labour to Was dishes or other menial jobs was also selling your body

Really Hmm just menial jobs?

Its just that dh uses his hands to type spreadsheets in his well paid and well respected position . Uses his body to get to sales meetings

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 20:09

So thats selling his body as well? I guess his brain is part if his body

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 20:10

Of not if Smile

Mariotta · 29/12/2018 20:11

If it's work like any other, would your son, if ever unemployed, be happy for the job centre to insist on his becoming a male prostitute if it was the only job available?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 20:14

If it's work like any other, would your son, if ever unemployed, be happy for the job centre to insist on his becoming a male prostitute if it was the only job available?

Well apparently its just like washing dishes and he has experience of that Grin

Only teasing OP...it is great tha they feel they can have these sort of discussions with you. I like it when my children do the same

anniehm · 29/12/2018 20:17

Look they have a point - the problem is about coercion, exploitation and it not being truly the choice of those with these "careers". There's a series on iPlayer about street prostitution in Leeds - but equally there was a documentary about young women choosing to be premium end prostitutes and web cam service providers pulling in £100k a year!

Young people are pretty astute - and actually there's plenty of male escorts these days, catering to the gay community and women.

I'm not pro anything really but just saying sex work is wrong is far too simplistic to counter a clever teenager! And as for surrogacy - it's the designer baby option of our time, Hollywood to Olympic medalists, you are wasting your breath. I object far more to surrogacy than (safe) prostitution actually because of the huge amounts of money.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 20:22

Escorts

Such a pretty word

GoulashSoup · 29/12/2018 20:26

I have found where I got that statistic from, just trying to find the actual source. Have found a more recent paper that finds 20%.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/tangledwebsorg.wordpress.com/2012/06/11/surrogacy-and-pre-eclampsia/amp/

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30420169/?i=5&from=surrogacy%20risks

Deliriumoftheendless · 29/12/2018 20:27

I would hate to wash dishes for a living (or for housework, for that matter) but I’ve never seen a dishwasher pushed out of a moving car in their underwear in the middle of the night to avoid (I’m guessing) the person paying having to cough up their wages, so on balance no, I don’t think they’re the same by a long chalk.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 29/12/2018 20:33

The inside of your body is not a workplace and can never be made safe.

RussellSprout · 29/12/2018 20:56

You can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.

At the end of the day, you can try to convince them of your logic any way you like, but they have the right to draw their own conclusions and form their own beliefs.

The more you try and push a certain viewpoint, the more they may resist.

All you can do is put it out there.. you cannot make them 'SEE' as you say. That makes you sound a little controlling.