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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

238 replies

Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 19:34

Help!

DS who is ridiculously clever, 18 and knows everything has been, along with DD (16) (Alsoclever but prepared to admit to not knowing everything) arguing amicably with me on and off all day.

Both of them were arguing that women should be free to choose to be prostitutes / porn stars / rent out their wombs.

I disagreed vehemently because we can't have laws that allow exploitation of the most vulnerable. Plus, these (particularly the first two) make women commodities for men.

Any clear arguments I can use? Links? Sources.

DS - who is gay - didn't see that if prostitution was so desirable a job, then men would do it. He also didn't see that consent is not really consent if you are vulnerable or being groomed / exploited. His life has been quite comfy. DD - no real life experience, didn't get that, as women, we are often seen as vessels for carrying / entering and that a penis in your mouth / cunt / bum is very different from just being physically close with someone who you don't fancy.

Both of them insisted that porn is watched by lots of women and that porn star is a desirable job for some and that porn stars are safe.

I gave it my all but really do want them to SEE!! Their generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex so selling it is no big deal.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 21:04

heir generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex

Sorry just seen this...im fairly positive that thats what every generation since those born in the 60's have said

MagicMix · 29/12/2018 21:09

Turn it around. Apologists for these practices always always focus on the woman and her choices rather than those doing the exploiting.

For example with prostitution, ask about the actions of the punter, not the prostitute:

Should a person have the right to purchase sexual consent? Is it legitimately possible to buy consent? Do your children understand the concept of enthusiastic consent and why this is completely incompatible with financial coercion? Can a punter ever truly know that a prostitute has not been forced into this position and if they understand that this is impossible, ask them is it ever ethical to go ahead with the transaction?

Purplewithgreenspots · 29/12/2018 21:25

I would happily wash dishes for a living. Have done so, would donso again. Prostituting my body on the other hand... nope, not the same at all.

Plus escort work vs street prositution? Sometimes better, sometimes not so nice. How about those lovely ladies in that really posh tower block in London. Do they really enjoy having sex with thirty randoms a month to pay their rent? Bet they don’t.

ChattyLion · 29/12/2018 21:27

The inside of your body is not a workplace
^ ^ This

DoctorTwo · 29/12/2018 23:35

Escorts

Such a pretty word

aye Rufus, it glosses over the reality.

littlbrowndog · 29/12/2018 23:46

Cripes
Ask em
Sucking a dick for a tenner or washing som3 dishes for a tenner
Which wold they lik3 seeing as they are sellin* their bodies

BeUpStanding · 29/12/2018 23:50

OBJECT is a feminist group who campaign against pornography, surrogacy and prostitution. Loads of good resources on their website - look in the 5 Key Issues section
www.objectnow.org/

littlbrowndog · 29/12/2018 23:52

No one choose to be a prostitute
No one
It’s something you get forced into or last resort
Them clever teens of urs don’t have a clue wha5 it is to,be desperate
Not one fucking clue when you have to suck off a guy for a tenner

littlbrowndog · 29/12/2018 23:54

Middle class angst ffs

BlindYeo · 29/12/2018 23:55

I think littl has it in a nutshell.

And that is why, ultimately, people who have true choice choose not to prostitute themselves. It's nearly always people who lack choice who do it.

littlbrowndog · 30/12/2018 00:00

I do blind
If it’s that a good a job why are all our kids not doing it
Yey let the lower classes suck the dicks cos fuck our clever kids deserve more than that don’t they ?

BlindYeo · 30/12/2018 00:09

Quite littl.

OP, perhaps tell them you have rethought it and agree with them. Suggest that next time they need some cash there's always plenty waiting to be made down on the local dodgy corner and if it's no worse than washing dishes they should be fine about it.

MargueritaPink · 30/12/2018 00:09

On prostitution tell them to find out what is happening in Leeds. Check out the many print and documentary sources of information about what is happening in Germany.

I saved the speech below because it is so impressive.

Verbatim speech by Cllr Sarah Field from a recent debate in Leeds full council:

Thank you Lord Mayor.
I’ll get straight to the point: buying women and children for sex is unacceptable and we need criminal sanctions that stop men from doing it

I note that in her amendment Cllr Coupar refers to “sex workers”. This is a necessary fiction to normalise the legalisation of prostitution, normalise it as just another consumer activity and normalise the position of men as merely clients. It obfuscates, rather than highlights, the harm of prostitution and completely ignores the executors of that harm.

This language of ‘sex work’ assumes that there are divisions between various forms of prostitution; such as between child and adult and between forced and so–called free. When in fact all these facets are contingent upon and encompass one another. Enormous sums of money are made from the monstrous trade in women’s and children’s bodies, leading inevitably to sex trafficking.

When we refer to sex work we are subscribing to a notion that it is ordinary work based on a bizarre notion of equality of opportunity, when in reality the VAST majority of prostitution does not fit this picture in any way whatsoever.

It’s not sex work. This euphemistic and sanitised language appeases the conscience of those who fail to acknowledge that prostitution damages women and children, it can NEVER be made safe and it fundamentally thwarts women’s rights to equality with men and their liberation, as a class, from systematic oppression.

To anyone who is happy to call transactional sex legitimate work, I’d ask if they’d be happy if it was the career choice of their daughters, wives, mothers and sisters? And would they be happy to see “sex work” careers advice in schools?

To quote feminist author Julie Bindel: “Any government that allows the decriminalisation of pimping and sex-buying sends a message to its citizens that women are vessels for male sexual consumption. If prostitution is “sex work”, then by its own logic, rape is merely theft. The inside of a woman’s body should never be viewed as a workplace.”^

It seems to have become a widely accepted axiom that prostitution can never be eliminated. Have we really set such a low bar?

When five prostituted women in Ipswich were murdered in 2006, what did Ipswich council do? It completely eradicated prostitution from its streets.

Ipswich did this through serious investment and multi-agency dedication to the Nordic Model.

I am calling on this council to learn from Ipswich.Visit them and work with them and their police force. I am calling for this council to abolish the shocking and scandalous “managed zone” and commit to the Nordic model, which seeks the following:

  • The decriminalisation of those who areprostituted
  • High-quality services and ring-fenced funding for those in prostitution
  • Buying sex to be made a criminal offence
  • Procuring, pimping and sex trafficking legislation to bestrengthened and the policing of these crimes to be fully resourced and prioritised
  • A widespread holistic approach of public information campaigns, education programmes in schools and training for the police

Leeds has become a city where women cannot even meet to discuss changes to government legislation, but where men are openly raping women, soliciting for sex with children and offering to buy babies.

Our city has become a notorious illustration of misogyny and this scourge must be stopped immediately.

Our women deserve better, our children deserve better, our communities deserve better and the only way forward is to end this sanctioning of sexual violence that should be morally despised.

In memory of Tania Nicol, Gemma Adams, Anneli Alderton, Annette Nichols, Paula Clennell and Daria Pionko

Oh and roll around the floor laughing at the ridiculous idea that their generation is so cool and not uptight about sex unlike any previous generation.

Being anti-prostitution and and anti- porn is not being anti- sex. Quite the contrary. Sex should be a mutually consented and mutually enjoyable activity between consenting adults. I don't care whether it is a monogamous couple of 20 years standing or 2 strangers out on the pull who got lucky. I don't even care if it is more than 2 as long as there is mutuality and consideration and respect for one's partner (s)

Porn and prostitution don't care about mutuality and respect. Porn and prostitution only work if sex is treated as something dirty and illicit. Porn and prostitution push the puritanical idea that sex is dirty.There is nothing open minded or cool about thinking of sex in that way.

pachyderm · 30/12/2018 00:11

Ah the washing dishes analogy. I did every menial job there was when I was young- waitressed, cleaned toilets etc, for crap pay. My flatmate and I used to joke that we'd make far more money if we joined the girls who plied their trade in our street.

We didn't though. Because we had choices, and we knew well what a shit life those girls had. We knew them, and all of them came from backgrounds of foster care, abusive men, addiction.

I wonder with the internet and camgirls etc, is it easier to hide the ugly reality of prostitution these days, because young women seem really blithe about it. Back then (early 90s) it was more in your face, on the street, and hard to put a gloss on.

littlbrowndog · 30/12/2018 00:17

Yeps it’s only well off people who think it’s a great job
Like the clever kids from op
Ffs
It’s a desperate fucking horrible thing to have to do
And the6 always want suck dick or anal
That’s how it is

littlbrowndog · 30/12/2018 00:21

Oh ta margeutri
Nice links

BlindYeo · 30/12/2018 00:21

Yes vaginal sex presumably just isn't degrading and dirty enough these days. What a world.

littlbrowndog · 30/12/2018 00:27

Or the ops so clever kids

Ffs
Pissed me right off with her clever kids like the rest o& our kids are dim lightbulbs

littlbrowndog · 30/12/2018 00:33

Most of us would say me kids is idiots
How would I change their idiot minds

MargueritaPink · 30/12/2018 00:34

And I'm so bored of the "it's better than..." insert any supposedly "low" status job to sneer at. No it bloody isn't.

Many of the supposedly low status jobs are essential jobs which society needs to operate; many, whilst not being essential, make life better or smoother or easier for others. None of them are causing active harm to the workers or society as a whole.

MargueritaPink · 30/12/2018 00:40

littlbrowndog your points about class and being clever are pertinent. I hadn't picked that up at first.

TornFromTheInside · 30/12/2018 01:02

The freedom of the individual to 'do as they please' is not truly a freedom for the collective.

The freedom that a woman exercises in choosing to be a prostitute (working on the assumption that in this individual case is 100% her own choice) still has a wider effect on society, which means other women can still suffer as a consequence.

How can a man differentiate between a woman who has consented freely and one who has not? (and that's in this hypothetical world of some women truly having freewill to make the choice).

Whilst some people might point to women who seemingly have a happy existence in the world of prostitution or pornography (high class escorts or big name porn stars), the overwhelming majority of participants are operating in less than salubrious conditions and funding addictions or operating as a last resort. Some are even doing it under physical duress.

Sure, it's someone's individual choice to drink and drive, but the consequences extend beyond their own choice. In the same way, for a woman who genuinely thinks 'I've got the body, I like sex, I'll charge for it' - her 'right' to make that choice still has consequences and she is effectively condoning the selling of sex for money.

Because a woman wants something, it doesn't mean society should accept it.

There is a similar conflict in BDSM where 'consenting' adults have agreed to certain acts being carried out, but the law has overruled the consent of the individuals in favour of protection for society. Quite where those boundaries are drawn is a huge topic for debate, but the principle remains, just because someone willingly makes a choice, it does not make it a valid choice for society to accept.

TornFromTheInside · 30/12/2018 01:23

The above is the argument against the kids saying 'but if a woman chooses to...'

The other argument is that whilst some are happy to legitimise prostitution, the mostly male tyrants running prostitution will gladly exploit the opportunity and in the process exploit countless women in the process, and those using prostitutes will either a) not give a damn or b) try to use the 'but she chooses freely' to legitimise their part in things, or c) naively actually believe they're not doing any harm.

It's a seedy, exploitative, life reducing and inhumane activity. Idiots want to glamourise it, and in the time it takes an opinionated arsehole teen to try and justify it, half a dozen women will have been sexually abused above an beyond anything they even agreed to in the 'transaction'.

Cismyfatarse1 · 30/12/2018 02:10

In my defence, my OP mentioned their cleverness in order to show why I need help. They are clever and DS is studying an arguing type degree at University, DD will do too next year. I am a teacher so very, very used to discussing with kids. I usually have all my arguments thought through but this caught me on the hop and it was so interesting to see what they think. But, I want them to understand what women are forced to do and why it is wrong. I want them to vote for change for women and girls.

I was just looking for help as they had arguments for everything.

I had read that brilliant Leeds speech before and paraphrased Julie Bindel too. The Leeds area was discussed. I talked about the risks to all women of men in an area like that.

They have had fairly unusual upbringings as we live in a remote and very, very rural part of Scotland. Their city experiences are limited (DS less so now) and they have had comfortable lives - my own and DH's were very different. We both grew up fairly hard, as it were, and had much more to deal with so know what poverty and desperation look like.

I just wanted a bit of help so thanks to those who offered it.

OP posts:
powershowerforanhour · 30/12/2018 02:30

That Leeds speech is great, especially the "if prostitution=sex work then rape=merely theft" idea.