Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

[Cismyfatarse1]

Help!

DS who is ridiculously clever, 18 and knows everything has been, along with DD (16) (Alsoclever but prepared to admit to not knowing everything) arguing amicably with me on and off all day.

Both of them were arguing that women should be free to choose to be prostitutes / porn stars / rent out their wombs.

I disagreed vehemently because we can't have laws that allow exploitation of the most vulnerable. Plus, these (particularly the first two) make women commodities for men.

Any clear arguments I can use? Links? Sources.

DS - who is gay - didn't see that if prostitution was so desirable a job, then men would do it. He also didn't see that consent is not really consent if you are vulnerable or being groomed / exploited. His life has been quite comfy. DD - no real life experience, didn't get that, as women, we are often seen as vessels for carrying / entering and that a penis in your mouth / cunt / bum is very different from just being physically close with someone who you don't fancy.

Both of them insisted that porn is watched by lots of women and that porn star is a desirable job for some and that porn stars are safe.

I gave it my all but really do want them to SEE!! Their generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex so selling it is no big deal.

Thoughts?

DS - who is gay - didn't see that if prostitution was so desirable a job, then men would do it.

But men ARE doing it. About a third of sex workers are men, and their service is almost always for gay men (gay men enjoy having sex too it seems; shock horror). And then of course, you have all of the men who work in pornography too, but a lot of men have to do gay pornography because straight pornography is competitive.

He also didn't see that consent is not really consent if you are vulnerable or being groomed / exploited.

Are you sure that's what was actually said? Because the overwhelming majority of people would be able to clearly see that paying a coerced person for sex is not OK. I don't know your son, but in all probability, he's a reasonable person and I'm sure he gets this.

DD - no real life experience, didn't get that, as women, we are often seen as vessels for carrying / entering and that a penis in your mouth / cunt / bum

This is a very negative stereotype of male sexuality which is often repeated, but I have yet to meet a man who actually thinks like this.

Both of them insisted that porn is watched by lots of women and that porn star is a desirable job for some and that porn stars are safe.

All of these statements are correct.

I am implacably opposed to surrogacy for lots of reasons previously mentioned regarding exploitation of women but also I think the children are less often considered when it is discussed. Yet it is surely buying babies by another name.
Radio 4 pm on Friday had an interview with a woman who had been adopted and has tracked down her family and family history through DNA testing and Ancestry. Many adopted people long for a sense of where they have come from. How will these children of surrogates, perhaps the product of a donated egg, how will they feel when they find out the truth? Yes no doubt many families will be up front and honest but many won't and children will get a shock if they do DNA testing. Who knew that impoverished Nepalese women we're providing a baby market for gay Israelis before the earthquake and subsequent "rescue" mission by Israel to evacuate the babies leaving the mothers to take their chances? Imagine growing up and finding your father did that?

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0001s09

Then there is the issue of oversight - of course lots of unsuitable people have babies the old fashioned way. That doesn't make it any better that men are able to bypass the normal adoption checks to obtain a baby.
There was a paedophile from Australia who obtained a baby from Thailand. I think it was that case that prompted the Thais to tighten up laws relating to international surrogacy but a poster on a different thread had evidence that it still goes on.

Your children may be interested in this article regarding the American celeb who was so disrespectful of the surrogate who provided the baby he bought.

www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/06/her-name-is-monroe-christine

Porn stars are safe????

What world do you live in?

Thank you for posting the Leeds speech. It’s brilliant.

What dangerous complacent nonsense the whole ‘sex work’ euphemism is.
I find it especially offensive when people in nice safe warm professional, pensioned respected jobs where they need not fear rape or murder in their daily work (like academics working in universities) advocate against ‘sex being criminalised’ which they claim is what is endangering prostituted women’s lives and if the UK just decriminalised ‘sex’ (by which they actually mean prostitution) and everyone just repeated the mantra that ‘sex work was work’ then prostituted people would be safer. I’m sure that saying aloud that magical mantra has worked really well to protect the safety of children, women and men just out and about doing their normal old sex work job before.

If prostitution is just paid sex why aren’t these people all doing it themselves and recommending it to all their students as a nice easy career option? Why bother with all that marking and teaching or effort of studying? It’s just sex.. It’s just paid work...

It’s probably not much of a surprise to notice that the Guardian can be uncritical in its reporting on this theme: www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/11/criminalisation-of-sex-work-normalises-violence-review-finds

This comment article asserts that ‘anti-prostitution feminists’ or ‘pro-criminalisation feminism’, ‘has zero interest in the safety or wellbeing of those who sell sex.’
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/02/brighton-university-freshers-fair-sex-workers-health-support-services

More here:
www.theguardian.com/society/prostitution

Go find some pictures of random men from the internet. Dodgy, slightly greasy as well as clean cut, but unattractive ones. Just a random selection of normal guys - of varying ages. Print out and hand each a selection. If they want to feed their child, keep a roof over their head - or avoid being beaten up by their pimp, they need to take these guys' penises inside any orifice the guy chooses.

Break it down.

Part of their problem is they have zero idea of their privilege. Which is good, they've not been damaged by the world yet, or not in any serious way. They're thinking of one thing (onscreen pornstar - and the part they can see onscreen) and you're thinking of something else.

They also cannot understand fully enthusiastic consent. Partly because they've probably never been coerced into sex, never mind anything else. They don't have the life experience to understand, which is as it should be really, but their youth also makes them know it alls! Again not abnormal!

Netflix Hot Girls Wanted is good for shining a light behind online porn. As is its follow up, although I couldn't stomach it past the part where the pianist newbie essentially got raped under the guise of ethical and feminist porn. They'd need to understand enthusiastic consent though to get it. And why actual pain during sex isn't ok.

Overall we have a problem in a society that doesn't know what a pleasured woman is. It is very much not a woman who makes a man happy.

Have them watch Hot Girls Wanted on Netflix, Louis Therox's Louis and the Brothel and Twilight of the porn stars. It's hard to make the young and privileged see the world for what it is. The arrogance of youth instills such certainty in their world view. I don't think you can change that really, just encourage them to keep looking deeper.

Oh, also ask them why youth and inexperience are prized in the sex industry, the exact opposite of every other career path? Could it be that contrary to the myth, it is not "the oldest profession" or even a profession at all? I mean, it's not like you need to earn CPD points for renewing your practising certificate is it? Your average punter seems to like them young, not "experienced".

Patchyderm Nice point!!

Are you sure that's what was actually said? Because the overwhelming majority of people would be able to clearly see that paying a coerced person for sex is not OK. I don't know your son, but in all probability, he's a reasonable person and I'm sure he gets this.

And how can to tell who is coerced and who isn't?

This is a very negative stereotype of male sexuality which is often repeated, but I have yet to meet a man who actually thinks like this.*
Many wont say it, but the way they refer to women, and treat them suggests thats precisely how they think:

I'd smash that
I'd shag the arse off that
She can suck this...

All phrases you'll hear amongst men.

Following on from *Pacyderm's post I save the wisdom (and the nonsense) of MN.

I can't give credit for who said this first as I didn't save the name.

Someone else on MN posited, rightly, that a service provider's value increases with experience. If your value decreases with experience, you are the product, not a sevice provider

Porn stars are safe????

What world do you live in?

The one where his boner is more important than reality.

a service provider's value increases with experience. If your value decreases with experience, you are the product, not a sevice provider.

That’s a really insightful and depressing way of looking at it.

People are watching too much American TV where porn is produced in good quality studios and there's an air of legitimacy around it all.
They forget the countless underground studios in Eastern Europe and Russia (and for that matter London) where less 'glamourous' porn is being made. - often webcam girls, or short 'scene' films.
I shudder to think what goes on with the real underground stuff, as the stuff on the open internet is bad enough.

I use the term 'glamorous' in the sense that's the image that American type porn wants to promote. Just because something is big business, it doesn't make it any more legitimate. They still want to promote the idea that women function purely as sexual objects. It is so pathetic, it would be laughable were it not for the damage it's causing.

It’s probably not much of a surprise to notice that the Guardian can be uncritical in its reporting on this theme:

That article isn't expressing the Guardians view on the subject, it opens with "a review finds..." The Guardian tends to express a mixture of opinions on the subject from a mixture of different writers. Do keep in mind that Julie Bindel writes for the Guardian, and that mumsnet looks like a soft liberal feminist website in comparison to the stuff she writes.

I think I probably thought the same at that age.

Teenagers tend to go with the ‘choooooice’ thing if they’re privileged because they’ve never NOT had choice. It’s only once they’re older that the scales hopefully fall from their eyes!

legendary

I had terrible mh problems in my 20s and was incredibly vocal about my sexual ‘choices’. No one would have said I was coerced because I was all about the ‘choice’ shite.

But it wasn’t like that at all. It’s not all Russian peasant girls being tricked, you know.

Teenagers tend to go with the ‘choooooice’ thing if they’re privileged because they’ve never NOT had choice.

What?

Her kids are saying it's OK for people to make their own choices.

They're not saying it's OK when people dont have a choice. No one would suggest that's OK.

Can I just make it clear I don't particularly care whether a prostitute has been coerced or not - in the sense that lack of coercion does not make prostitution acceptable.

Poster FloraFox said this. It refers to stripping but applies equally to prostitution.

I appreciate I am recycling arguments but (a) they were well made in the first place and (b) it gets wearisome having to respond to the "sex work is just a job" lie.

At the end of the day, even if you could produce unimpeachable evidence that every single stripper has chosen stripping over being a doctor, makes (and pays taxes on) more money than a banker and fondly recounts tales of her stripping days to her children, I would still be opposed to stripping as it both reflects and reinforces the position of women in society as objects to be purchased for sexual service to men
FloraFox

I had terrible mh problems in my 20s and was incredibly vocal about my sexual ‘choices’. No one would have said I was coerced because I was all about the ‘choice’ shite.*

Confused.

Why would you talk to clients about your "sexual choices," and give them a false illusion that everything was completely of your own free will, when that wasn't the case?

legendary because it’s not actually a choice, is it?

If it was, men would do it, mc educated women would do it.

But the statistics prove that this is very much not the case.

legendary I’m not talking about being a prostitute, I’m talking about doing sexual stuff that I now realise was a terrible idea.

If you think it’s such a great choice, can you honestly say you’d be fine with your daughter doing it? Or your mum?