Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

[Cismyfatarse1]

Help!

DS who is ridiculously clever, 18 and knows everything has been, along with DD (16) (Alsoclever but prepared to admit to not knowing everything) arguing amicably with me on and off all day.

Both of them were arguing that women should be free to choose to be prostitutes / porn stars / rent out their wombs.

I disagreed vehemently because we can't have laws that allow exploitation of the most vulnerable. Plus, these (particularly the first two) make women commodities for men.

Any clear arguments I can use? Links? Sources.

DS - who is gay - didn't see that if prostitution was so desirable a job, then men would do it. He also didn't see that consent is not really consent if you are vulnerable or being groomed / exploited. His life has been quite comfy. DD - no real life experience, didn't get that, as women, we are often seen as vessels for carrying / entering and that a penis in your mouth / cunt / bum is very different from just being physically close with someone who you don't fancy.

Both of them insisted that porn is watched by lots of women and that porn star is a desirable job for some and that porn stars are safe.

I gave it my all but really do want them to SEE!! Their generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex so selling it is no big deal.

Thoughts?

I would still be opposed to stripping as it both reflects and reinforces the position of women in society as objects to be purchased for sexual service to men

The problem with the "Women are sexual objects" argument is that it falls apart once you remember that there are plenty of men who strip for other men.

These are just vulgar euphemisms that men use whenever they find a woman attractive. They aren't indicative of how these men view and respect other people.

I think they ARE indicative of how they view women (and yes, vice versa if women use them).
It doesn't make them particularly bad people, no, but it does (in my eyes) suggest they don't have a great deal of depth. It's often confirmed with tales of their exploits 'took a bird home', 'met some slapper' etc. Some of it's bravado, I accept that, but it's just a lousy way to view women and sex. Moreover, there really are some men who treat women with little else but disdain. They really do view them as a disposable receptacle for their spunk. That's certainly not a majority of men, but it's a very unhealthy minority.

As for being able to determine who is being coerced and who isn't - of course there will be obvious signs in the most extreme cases, but the worrying truth is that some women will learn to hide the coercion incredibly well, because their safety demands they hide it well.

legendary and it is also seen as a problem in the gay community that gay men often view other gay men as objects.

So what’s your point or are you just derailing?

The OP should ask her son if her daughter were to make the choice to be a prostitute would he be happy to pass on her contact details and a note of her specialities to his hetero friends?

I mean my son supplements his income by giving piano and guitar tuition. I'm happy to pass on his details. If being a prostitute is just another job her brother should have no qualms about passing on his sister's details, if she were to choose to do so.

legendaryI’m not talking about being a prostitute, I’m talking about doing sexual stuff that I now realise was a terrible idea.

If you didn't know it was a terrible idea, then how could your sexual partners have known? But if you're going to go down this road, then we shouldn't be having sex with anyone else just in case they regret it in the future.

If you think it’s such a great choice, can you honestly say you’d be fine with your daughter doing it? Or your mum?
I don't have a daughter, but as for mum, I'm sure she's perfectly capable of making her own choices and she doesn't need me to mansplain to her what I think is best.

legendary oh you’re a man.

Well that explains a lot.

Go and do some reading instead of wasting women’s time.

The problem with the "Women are sexual objects" argument is that it falls apart once you remember that there are plenty of men who strip for other men

I will have to take your word on the number of male strippers but even if it is correct it does not remotely negate the argument. Do you really think that because some men are also sexually exploited that (a) that makes the sexual exploitation of women ok or (b) I and the original poster don't care about the sexual exploitation of men.

The problem with the "Women are sexual objects" argument is that it falls apart once you remember that there are plenty of men who strip for other men.

No it doesn't.
The fact that men can be treated as a sexual object too does not undermine the fact women can be.
There are plenty of exploited rentboys in the world. Plenty of men who need money and will strip to get it. And yes, there might be some who just enjoy it, but that takes nothing away from the others.

I mean seriously, whilst posters on here are primarily focussing on women we do understand that men can and are exploited by the "sex industry" too. Likely they entered into it as vulnerable children.

And yes , the female sex tourists going to Gambia are scum too.

The fact that men can be treated as a sexual object too does not undermine the fact women can be.
Correct, but if sex work only happens because of gender inequality, or because women are viewed by society as sex objects, then male sex workers and strippers would not exist. The fact that male sex workers exist completely invalidates the "gender inequality" theory.

My opposition to prostitution is not necessarily based on gender inequality. Prostitution is degrading and debasing. It is treating people as objects to be used for the sexual gratification of the buyer.

The buyers will of course in the vast majority of cases be men so actually even there gender plays a significant part.

And the majority are not stripping 'for other men' they are stripping for money. It's an important distinction. Money is the motivation. Ask them to strip for free and see where it gets you.

I have sympathy for some men who feel a prostitute or a stripper is their only outlet - I get it. I don't agree with it though.
I have no sympathy for men who just see it as a transaction and woman's body is a commodity.

I could never pay a woman for sex, because deep down I might not be Mr Handsome, but I'd still want a woman to actually want me. Some people believe they can have great sex without emotion, but for me, I only ever want both, because great sex WITH emotion still trumps all.

I don't 'blame' all men who use prostitutes or porn - because I don't think all men are bad people. I think some are naive, some are misguided and some really are arseholes. But I do believe pornography and prostitution ultimately devalue people and predominantly it's women who suffer the most as a result.

Correct, but if sex work only happens because of gender inequality, or because women are viewed by society as sex objects, then male sex workers and strippers would not exist. The fact that male sex workers exist completely invalidates the "gender inequality" theory.

No it doesn't.

Gender inequality does not mean ALL women fair worse than ALL men, it means 'on the whole' women fair worse than men, and this is reflected in porn, prostitution, violence, sexual assaults, pay, opportunity and more...

1000 women exploited by men, and 100 men exploited by women, The inequality is there. You're trying to suggest the 100 men disproves it - ludicrous and illogical.

Again, I have never met any men who think like this

Well i havent met any women who talk about men in the way described upthread

Not going to say there aren't any...i just haven't heard them

Agree with marguerita and toms'posts

To be fair its probably better to say i agree with everyone apart from PJ....so far at least

Though pj is spot on about Jay

I don't think any woman has said sex work ONLY happens because of gender inequality, I think they will argue is a reflection of it.

You also went on to explain how male sex workers often cater to gay men - once again, completely missing the point that men are the predominant purchasers of sex. Some of the men are gay, but it's still a man buying the sex.

Yes, you'll argue some women buy sex too, and they do, but it's a fraction of the overwhelming majority. It doesn't undermine the fact that the sex industry caters largely to men, ideally to paying men and either exploits common male fantasies about the sexualisation of women, or it influences their perceptions about female sexuality because they believe porn scenes are somehow accurate reflections of what women want.

Finally, porn is also influencing young women who are being conditioned to believe they need to repeat the same porn acts in order for them to be good lovers, or to be 'normal' in bed.

When we were young, we'd look at the odd dirty magazine to learn something, or pick up from peers and elders about things. Nowadays, the internet is often the first port of call to 'discover' about sex, and the overwhelming message kids will see is 'yep, you need to do anal sex, you need to be bi, you need to like it rough, you need want group sex etc etc'.

My opposition to prostitution is not necessarily based on gender inequality. Prostitution is degrading and debasing.

Shouldn't the people who work as sex workers decide for themselves whether it's degrading?

It is treating people as objects to be used for the sexual gratification of the buyer.

Not at all. The overwhelming majority of people who buy sex don't view the person as an object. I have yet to meet someone who does.

The buyers will of course in the vast majority of cases be men so actually even there gender plays a significant part.

The buyers are nearly always men, and it's extremely rare for a woman to pay for sex, but a third of sex workers are men (I thought I had already covered this.)

Shouldn't the people who work as sex workers decide for themselves whether it's degrading?

No, because the individual doesn't always know, and there is collective repercussion / consequence.

Should be let an individual decide for themselves when they are fit to drive after having a drink? If they feel ok - it must be safe right? (cough)

The buyers are nearly always men, and it's extremely rare for a woman to pay for sex, but a third of sex workers are men (I thought I had already covered this.)

Yes you stated it - you didn't 'cover it' - implying to made some amazing point that nobody grasped.

But I'll bite. 1/3 of WHICH sex workers? where are your figures from? UK, worldwide?
What is the nature of their sex work? pimp, intermediary, brothel owner, porn producer? Do you have the breakdown? I know you don't, because there is no official stat for this. There are some stats from American porn, but those are very skewed and deduced from movie credits!

But prove me wrong - show me your stats and the breakdown of their involvement in sex work.

and even if were true - 1/3 are men - that would leave 2/3 being women and you have the audacity to question the gender inequality?

Hmmm. That's just being wilfully blind.

damn typos everywhere - using phone

he overwhelming majority of people who buy sex don't view the person as an object. I have yet to meet someone who does.

You know loads of people who buy sex

Alrighty