Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

[Cismyfatarse1]

Help!

DS who is ridiculously clever, 18 and knows everything has been, along with DD (16) (Alsoclever but prepared to admit to not knowing everything) arguing amicably with me on and off all day.

Both of them were arguing that women should be free to choose to be prostitutes / porn stars / rent out their wombs.

I disagreed vehemently because we can't have laws that allow exploitation of the most vulnerable. Plus, these (particularly the first two) make women commodities for men.

Any clear arguments I can use? Links? Sources.

DS - who is gay - didn't see that if prostitution was so desirable a job, then men would do it. He also didn't see that consent is not really consent if you are vulnerable or being groomed / exploited. His life has been quite comfy. DD - no real life experience, didn't get that, as women, we are often seen as vessels for carrying / entering and that a penis in your mouth / cunt / bum is very different from just being physically close with someone who you don't fancy.

Both of them insisted that porn is watched by lots of women and that porn star is a desirable job for some and that porn stars are safe.

I gave it my all but really do want them to SEE!! Their generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex so selling it is no big deal.

Thoughts?

Oh yeah id forgotten the sex worker bit also covered pimps

Might go someway to explain the male discrepancy

No, because the individual doesn't always know, and there is collective repercussion / consequence.

What's your basis for believing that you have greater knowledge and insight than someone who has decided to sell sex? How do you know their circumstances better than they do? Why should they follow your decisions as opposed to trusting their own judgement?

Should be let an individual decide for themselves when they are fit to drive after having a drink? If they feel ok - it must be safe right? (cough)

First of all, virtually all sex workers work when sober, not when drunk. Second, I have never been drunk and believed I was fit to drive.

First of all, virtually all sex workers work when sober, not when drunk. Second, I have never been drunk and believed I was fit to drive

Oh christ

Think youre on your own tom

What's your basis for believing that you have greater knowledge and insight than someone who has decided to sell sex? How do you know their circumstances better than they do? Why should they follow your decisions as opposed to trusting their own judgement?

I don't... because I am not placing MY judgment on an individual. I am placing it on the industry as a whole, and the majority of sex workers do NOT want to be doing it. The majority of workers in the industry aren't in the best of places and need help to escape it, not a minority of folks promoting the supposed benefits of it.

I decided to work in a brothel/massage parlour when I was a student many years ago . It absolutely was a choice... I was skint but the alternative was working in a sandwich shop for £3 an hour and I turned that down.

It wasn't a great experience and I didn't do it for long, but I don't think it's fair to say that women who do this have no other choice. That may be true for some, but for many, like me and possibly other student sex workers, there is a choice. I just chose the easy money ( I could make £200 in a night which is a lot when you're a student (and this was 20 years ago) it easily funded my party lifestyle).

I can't be the only one who chose easy money like this. Not saying its a good or bad choice but lets not pretend no sex workers ever have a choice or can freely consent. I did.

PJ do you pay women to have sex with you and pretend to enjoy it?

First of all, virtually all sex workers work when sober, not when drunk. Second, I have never been drunk and believed I was fit to drive.

You have missed the point by a country mile.
The point isn't that sex workers are drunk. It's that individuals CAN make individual choices, but it doesn't make them good choices. It doesn't mean they are always in the best position to make those choices.

'Freewill' of the individual does not override the rest of society.
If a man or woman enjoys sex, and want to have sex for money, then of course, that is a personal matter for them, but it doesn't happen in isolation, it has social consequences, and those consequences are not always beneficial. That is why we have laws. It's why we try to curtail prostitution and keep it off the streets.

Prostitution in the UK is not illegal per se, providing it is done privately (partly because it's nigh on impossible to prove / police). Doing it in public is illegal for both the seller and purchaser because it impinges on the rest of society.

On the sex workers working when sober issue - I don't know what it was like at other places but the 'massage parlour' I worked at actually sold speed to the girls, to help them stay awake/give them energy. So hardly sober.

It's not a matter of who consents freely and who doesn't. Of course some will make a rational choice to give a massage 'with extras' because there is money to be made from it...

The issue is that in doing so (through individual choice), the wider industry is supported and the exploited remain exploited.

It's complex. A woman in London operating a webcam service in the safety of her own home, is having an impact on a pimp run webcam studio in Romania where women are not so well looked after, because gullible men want to believe the majority of women are doing it as a lifestyle choice not from absolute desperation.

Torn maybe street workers are in a place of 'absolute desperation' but what do you think about the higher end of the market, the so called 'high class hookers' who can make several thousand per night servicing very rich clients? Are they also desperate? Because if so I'd have thought a few nights work and boom! Thats you sorted for a good while.

The point isn't that sex workers are drunk. It's that individuals CAN make individual choices, but it doesn't make them good choices. It doesn't mean they are always in the best position to make those choices.

I didn't miss the point. I got that, but I thought it was a daft analogy because drunk people are actually legally regarded as being incapable of making sound decisions. Contracts signed when drunk, for example, are legally invalid. But anyway...

If a man or woman enjoys sex, and want to have sex for money, then of course, that is a personal matter for them, but it doesn't happen in isolation, it has social consequences, and those consequences are not always beneficial.

If I put money into a woman's hands in private, that only affects the two of us. It doesn't "create demand" if my money is only going into the pockets of a handful of women.

Prostitution in the UK is not illegal per se, providing it is done privately (partly because it's nigh on impossible to prove / police). Doing it in public is illegal for both the seller and purchaser because it impinges on the rest of society.

That's a matter of opinion. I would disagree because countries like Germany seem to be doing OK.

They don't have to pretend to enjoy it if they don't want to. I hope they do, but I think most of them are neutral about it. As long as they don't dislike the experience, that's OK. They would tell me if they disliked something and in that case, I wouldn't do it.

Some prostitutes will suffer if they exhibit ANY sign of not liking it. 'Keep the punters happy, or you will suffer'.
There's a much wider world than the UK out there... and some seriously abused young women who know little else but to fake pleasure convincingly.
If many men can't tell when their partners are faking pleasure, they sure as hell cannot tell when a woman whose very livelihood depends on a convincing act are doing it.

but the 'massage parlour' I worked at actually sold speed to the girls, to help them stay awake/give them energy. So hardly sober.

Were they forced to take it? I hope not.

That's a matter of opinion. I would disagree because countries like Germany seem to be doing OK.

s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/

Legalising it doesn't make the reality of sex work any less grim.
Is Germany doing 'ok'?
What about the girls in Germany... are THEY doing ok?

Ah the legendary Prostitute's John. Now I get it. And henceforth shall you be known and understood.
You revolting shit.

No, not forced but a lot did. If you're doing a 7pm to 7am shift shagging it kind of helps.

The only impact it has is that the women in London would reduce demand for the Romanian women. The time I spend watching the London woman on webcam is time that I'm not spending watching the Romanian women.

Nope, because do not always know which is which. The pimps in Romania then have to work their girls even harder. Do you think they hold their hands up and say 'oh dear, a lady in London won the business, so our profits fall?' - no they say 'you'd better win back the business by doing more extreme acts, and for less money'.

Some prostitutes will suffer if they exhibit ANY sign of not liking it. 'Keep the punters happy, or you will suffer'.

I know you haven't met me, but I can assure you that I'm a fairly placid, nerdy-looking and non-threatening individual. No sex worker has ever had a problem telling me "I don't do that," and I have never challenged anyone who has said that to me.

I don't express any signs of being unhappy when denied a service, and no one watches us having sex... so even if there was a theoretically pimp in another room (but I'm certain there isn't) then he would have no reason to believe I'm unhappy.

If many men can't tell when their partners are faking pleasure, they sure as hell cannot tell when a woman whose very livelihood depends on a convincing act are doing it.

I'm single, but if I was in a relationship... faking it is one thing, but if my hypothetical partner actually disliked what I was doing, or found it painful, I would like to think that she would tell me.

If I can trust a sex worker to tell me they dislike something (and they always do) then surely I could trust a partner to tell me the same.

You revolting shit.

That's not nice.

Actually, the most successful camgirls are not the ones doing the most extreme acts, but rather, the most cheerful women with a sense of humour are able to build rapport with their clients and establish a loyal fan base. If you look on Chaturbate, the most successful women are the "classy" women with nice personalities and nice rooms. What makes you think clients want abused women instead?

My God.
That's the whole point - you do not KNOW which are abused and which are not, which are really happy and which are pretending to be.
However, ask them if they will do things for free. I doubt they will, so at least you know they aren't doing it for pleasure they are doing it for money.
You do realise that some of the Eastern European studios are very hi-tech right? they don't all look seedy, and the girls don't all look malnourished, but that doesn't make it any less exploitative.

Again I reiterate, that not everyone is exploited, but the industry as a whole does have many exploited women (and some men too) - too many to be justified by calls of 'well, some women really like doing it'.

Its all you though isnt it pj

All

I wouldnt do this or i wouldnt do that

Its not all about you