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Number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims in UK **Title amended by MNHQ**

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MNHQ have commented on this thread.

WombOfOnesOwn Fri 20-Oct-17 01:59:40

This year, the number of murderers who are transgender is higher in the UK than the number of murder victims.

And then there's attempted murders and current murderers declaring themselves trans while behind bars:

Does the fact that MTFs are victimizers in these obscenely violent criminal acts more frequently than they are victims change how lawmakers will see their claims of eternal victimhood? I doubt it. How many male murderers will have to be given elective surgery at taxpayer expense and housed with women (far less likely to be in prison for violent crime) before someone takes a long, hard look at the reality of the situation?

Kokeshi123 Fri 20-Oct-17 02:47:01

What are the figures on trans murder victims in the UK? Do you have a link? (I'm not questioning you, particularly, I just want some actual statistics for both areas).

misskelly Fri 20-Oct-17 02:52:57

I'll take a wild guess that it is probably the case that more MTF trans have been convicted of rape compared to the number of men convicted of raping MTF trans.

I could be wrong, but I'm sure I've read numerous reports of 'Women' who have been convicted of raping a women or child. Which is odd as you need to be in possession of a penis to commit rape.

If it were the other way round I'm fairly certain that the trans lobby would be out there doing something about violent men. But maybe they are too busy fighting off feminists who are carrying out 'literal' violence against them.

WombOfOnesOwn Fri 20-Oct-17 03:44:02

The last murder of a trans person in the UK was in 2016.

SerendipityFelix Fri 20-Oct-17 07:37:11

William Lound, murdered in 2016, is listed on that Wikipedia article as a transman. However none of the newspaper reports that I can find seem to support that he was transgender, although I appreciate that there are restrictions on reporting that may be responsible for this. This article (Guardian link) is the only one I found that references the murder as ‘transphobic’, states ”Lound...was gay and would occasionally wear women’s clothing and makeup“ - I’m unclear if that means Lound was a cross dressing gay man (all references use ‘he’)? NOT a transman. This ITV news report states ”may have been a transgender hate crime, as William sometimes dressed as a woman”. If you read multiple newspaper reports, it reads as a gay panic murder (he had just had sex with his murderer) caused by severe failings of mental health care (his murderer had spent extended time as a psychiatric inpatient, had repeatedly stated he had urges to kill).

It just feels a bit of a stretch to me to co-opt this tragedy as a transgender hate crime. In any case, that Wikipedia article seems likely to be inaccurate in describing Lound as a transman.

theendisnotnigh Fri 20-Oct-17 09:54:11

Where have you got these statistics from? Given that there are two women a week killed by their partners or ex partners, there were 571 homicides in the UK in 2016 I find it impossible to believe your headline that there are more trans murderers than victims? Where's your evidence for this?

nauticant Fri 20-Oct-17 09:59:32

I assume the title is supposed to mean that in the UK the number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims.

theendisnotnigh Fri 20-Oct-17 10:17:12

Right - that makes sense. OP - maybe ask mumsnet to amend the title? Otherwise it just gets quoted by activists as an example of how transphobic we all are?

Blanchefleur Fri 20-Oct-17 10:50:06

Here are some figures taken from an organisation called 'Transrespect versus Transphobia Worldwide' (TvT) which, among other things, monitors worldwide murder rates of transgender people. or if this link to their report doesn't work, try and select the pdf from there.

According to their research, 8 transgender people were murdered in the UK between 2008 and June 2016, so an average of 1 per year over the last 8 years. (Table 10 on the pdf).

I can't find any official UK statistics on transgender murder victims. The nearest I have found is the Office for National Statistics report on homicides in England and Wales between 1997 and 2016, which records 3 victims with 'unknown gender' since 2012. (The TvT report shows 4 trans murders for this period). (Figure 2.2)

The TvT report also states that 86% of murdered trans people in Europe were sex workers (doesn't give UK figures for this), which is quite a bit higher than the global figure of 65%. (Table 16 on pdf).

nauticant Fri 20-Oct-17 11:18:29

The general UK murder rate is about 10 per million per year.

According to that table the UK murder rate for trans people is 0.125/8 (8 years) per million per year. This is about 0.02 per million per year.

For the number of trans people murdered to be disproportionately high would require there to be fewer than 1 in 500 trans people in the population.

To put it another way, if 1 trans person is murdered in the UK per year, and 571 (the 2016 figure) from the general population, for trans people to be murdered at a disproportionate rate would require there to be fewer than 1 in 500 trans people in the population.

However, the numbers might be wrong (they're too small to give any confidence), I could well have got this wrong, and there are no corrections for factors such as people being engaged in sex work. To be honest, I'm just showing that you can prove what you want with stats when the numbers aren't solid.

SophantToSuckYourBlooodMumsnet (MNHQ) Fri 20-Oct-17 13:15:41

Hi OP,

We've just nipped in and edited the title as we can see why it might be perceived as inflammatory. If you've got any worries at all, just drop us a line at (or by the usual reporting) and we'll happy chat through it.

Datun Fri 20-Oct-17 13:41:05

Which ever way you look at it, it would appear that the statistics of transwomen being the most targeted, oppressed group, don’t seem to stack up. Nor does the assertion that they are harmless. By which I mean, they are no less harmless than any other man.

I’ll be willing to bet, that once this premise is more widely circulated the goalposts will change, yet again.

It won’t be that they are at risk of death, it will be that they are at risk of bullying, teasing, etc.

And the reason why some transwomen kill or attack women is because of that bullying and teasing.

Hopefully, the widespread assertion over how they are targeted and harmless, has been noticed by enough people that when the backpedalling starts, it might make them sit up and think.

BetsyM00 Fri 20-Oct-17 14:50:00

When I get more time, transgender crimes is something I want to research further.

One thing I did look into was child abuse images. The average number of women in the UK (over the last 11 years) who were convicted of possession of indecent photos of a child is 1.7 per year.

I know of 3 TIMs convicted of this crime in 2016 - Alice Smith, Nathan Bird and Nicola Florida.

I am fairly certain these 3 cases are included in the total number of 6 women who were convicted of this crime last year (a police officer tells me they would be included in the female stats). This makes sense since the number has increased dramatically from the long-term average.

So trans crimes have demonstratively distorted the female stats by showing at least a doubling of convictions just in this one criminal area.

And of course there are no treatment programmes for female sex offenders, so TIMs such as these have no rehabilitation recourse!

MissMoneyPlant Fri 20-Oct-17 17:03:22

And of course there are no treatment programmes for female sex offenders, so TIMs such as these have no rehabilitation recourse!

Is the rehabilitation programme delivered in groups? Is that the reason why there are none for women? Or is it due to different motivations (?) so different methods needed to rehabilitate?

MissMoneyPlant Fri 20-Oct-17 17:10:16

Sorry, I phrased that badly - I don't mean different motivations, exactly. I mean, do female sex offenders require a different type of rehabilitation programme? In which case they could use reasons other than sex to justify different types of rehabilitation programme, ie. offender type A does rehabilitation type A, and so put the transwomen in with the men.

Datun Fri 20-Oct-17 20:22:41

As far as I know, that has become an issue because a man identifying as a woman was not allowed to go on a rehabilitation programme, because there were none for women.

So he didn’t go.

pisacake Fri 20-Oct-17 21:36:45

Meanwhile, right-on media sources in the US are falling over themselves to defend a transgender rapist. says

"Fox News misrepresents report of sexual assault by a trans person in a private residence’s bathroom"

the reason being that Fox News

"did not mention the location of the alleged assault, simply noting that “it was unclear whether the attack happened in a private or public bathroom."

and has now updated the article accordingly, however it has still been criticised for

'leaving room for speculation that the attack had taken place in a public restroom — adding fuel to the already dangerous transgender “bathroom predator” myth.'

Snopes also reports on the story, saying "Was a Transgender Woman Convicted of Sexually Assaulting a Young Girl in a Bathroom?"

is only 'partly' true, by posting a strawman claim that "A transgender woman raped a young girl in a women's bathroom because bills were passed allowing transgender people to use bathrooms which correspond with their gender." a claim which doesn't actually seem to appear anywhere.

The Inquisitr,, meanwhile adds

"The 27-year-old Miguel claims to be innocent of rape."

Despite the fact that he has been convicted.

These same sources also seem determined to 'deadname' and 'misgender' him, despite the fact that his lawyer confirms "Martinez identifies as a woman and goes by Michelle. "

Snopes somehow manages not to use any pronouns in its article (haha, the English language is in ruins thanks to this nonsense). says this is all terrible because of some fake statistics about transgender murder rate, saying that 'for young black trans women' (an extremely specific subgroup, no?) the murder rate is 38 per 100,000, and saying that if the whole of America shared the 'young black trans women' murder rate, there would be 120,000 rather than 15,000 murders per year.

However, a very quick Google search suggests that the young black male murder rate exceeds 50 per 100,000

So in fact 'young black trans women' are no more at risk than the rest of the black male-bodied population.

These fucking fraudulent liars are not content with erasing femininity to claim that transgender people are more at risk, they now want to erase black identity as well? It's shocking that young black men in America are frequently murdered, but it's got fuck all to do with being transgender.

How fucking dare they.

pisacake Fri 20-Oct-17 21:37:44

Here's the fake news about trans women being murdered in epidemic proportions:

nauticant Fri 20-Oct-17 21:56:25

'for young black trans women' ... the murder rate is 38 per 100,000

However, a very quick Google search suggests that the young black male murder rate exceeds 50 per 100,000

That fits in with my playing around with numbers upthread. My suspicion is that if you look at a socio-economic group the trans people in that group will tend to have greater privilege than the average.

SerendipityFelix Fri 20-Oct-17 22:01:36

Wait - young black men >50/100,000 and young black transwomen 38/100,000 - doesn’t that mean that young black men reduce their risk of being murdered by transitioning? Very tired and interpreting statistics brain not entirely engaged right now.

pisacake Fri 20-Oct-17 22:19:02

Well I'm not 100% sure that the difference is statistically significant and the age groups don't match up entirely, but the point is that there is prima facie no evidence that trans women are any different from males in risk

Ereshkigal Fri 20-Oct-17 22:32:28

Wait - young black men >50/100,000 and young black transwomen 38/100,000 - doesn’t that mean that young black men reduce their risk of being murdered by transitioning

Yes it does. And white men absolutely do. Hardly any trans murder victims in the US are white, while there are about 4000 white men killed a year.

Justanothernap Fri 20-Oct-17 23:32:35

missmoneyplant bit rusty on this but the most effective intervention for sex offences is group work. The programmes are designed with men in mind. Putting the resource where the need is - most sex offenders are men.

No group work programmes for females are run specifically for sex offences. You'd never get enough candidates for the programme. From near ten years working with sex offenders - two have been female. I've lost count of the men. So women get one to one stuff.

Ereshkigal Sat 21-Oct-17 00:32:18

I've lost count of the men. So women get one to one stuff.

Except this specific "woman" didn't get anything because they had no programme available to put him on. So they pretty much let him off.

Justanothernap Sat 21-Oct-17 16:54:06

Sorry Ereshkigal which ones that? Miguel? Did he get prison but no rehabilitation? This is US I guess so no clue how it works over there.

Would hate to work with a transgender sex offender given all the complexities (it's tricky enough as it is, would be ridiculous navigating lady penis's.)

Unlikely to crop up due to fact transgender people are such a small population. Remains to be seen how this changes if self I.d comes in. It's certainly something that won't be thought about beforehand though. How self I.d affects treatment programmes for offending behaviour. Just a mess that will have to be worked out afterwards. As per.

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