Does the fact that MTFs are victimizers in these obscenely violent criminal acts more frequently than they are victims change how lawmakers will see their claims of eternal victimhood? I doubt it. How many male murderers will have to be given elective surgery at taxpayer expense and housed with women (far less likely to be in prison for violent crime) before someone takes a long, hard look at the reality of the situation?

OP posts:

Feminist4 · 11/10/2018 23:46

I’m surprised at the transphobia in this thread. I feel for MIrandaI and think some of you are over -reacting to her comments, and being pretty nasty. I for one which can empathise with her position.

PositivelyPERF · 11/10/2018 23:52

I’m surprised at the transphobia in this thread.

Bullshite! You came on here to find an excuse to shout Transphobe! I don’t care! Bigot, transphobe, etc ceases to mean anything when constantly misused by the TRAs.

PersonWithAVulva · 11/10/2018 23:58

Reality Check verdict: A government survey has counted 125 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, but the Ministry of Justice says these figures are not yet a reliable reflection of the true numbers. The MoJ says 60 of them have been convicted of one or more sexual offences but it didn't identify their gender. There are likely to be more trans inmates, on shorter sentences and who are less likely to be sex offenders, who don't show up in this data.

The verdict is the bloody same

PersonWithAVulva · 11/10/2018 23:59

Excerpt with BBC speculation thrown in. We can only go on the numbers by the MOJ...speculating about what MIGHT be going on is daft in a 'fact check'

RedDogsBeg · 12/10/2018 00:03

Jeez, it never penetrates does it:

This is a feminism board we discuss anything and everything that could negatively impact or actively harm women and their rights.

Pro women - that's it.

arranfan · 12/10/2018 00:09

Gilligan investigated those figures as part of the Sunday Times research and it confirmed FPFW's figures.

mobile.twitter.com/mragilligan/status/1029082413304094721

For people who are interested, there'll be contemporaneous discussion of the Sunday Times piece on FWR via AS.

It should also be remembered that there are people convicted of murder and attempted rape who applied for transfer to the women's prison estate on the basis of a GRC and ended up on early release (and possibly not recorded in the statistics). E.g., Karen Jones - the one who was invited by Lord Patel to address the HoL on transgender prisoner issues.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370661-2009-case-of-a-judge-ordering-an-intact-male-rapist-into-a-female-prison-because-he-had-a-GRC

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3192486-Lord-Patel-Karen-Jones-thread-anyone-want-to-go-to-House-of-Lords-to-talk-to-Lord-Patel

FloralBunting · 12/10/2018 00:20

Really not going to get a very high mark for effort on this one, feminist4. It lacks any style, the attempted goady pretend 'empathy' for the other GF reanimator is very lacklustre, and your tone lacks conviction. It's a bit lazy really, as far as this sort of thing goes.

Perhaps you could try some all caps shouting? Bring in some more socks? You really need to invest some effort if you want recipes.

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 08:44

Gosh, Feminist4, talk about an own goal.

The BBC fact check article confirmed FPFW's figures (gleaned from FOI requests and carefully going through the published prison stats), rather than debunking them. All the BBC were able to do was to leave out the crucial bit of context that 98% of sexual offenders in prison in the UK are in the male estate.

For 2017, there were 120 prisoners in the female estate due to having committed sexual offences. If trans people are 1% of the population (the figure Stonewall and others have suggested), one would expect 1 or 2 to be transwomen. FPFW put the number of prisoners identifying as transwomen in the male estate at 48 (somewhat lower than the figure in the BBC article, though I suppose it's possible that some of the "60, we don't know what gender" could be in the women's estate - though trust me on this one, this is only going to make the maths look even worse for the transgenderist side of the argument).

So, if we took all of those transwomen and placed them in the women's estate, we'd now have 48 out of 168 women sex offenders (on the much vaunted TWAW definition of womanhood) being transwomen, i.e. 28%. Instead of 1%. That's one hell of a jump.

With numbers like that, Feminist4, I wouldn't be drawing attention to that BBC article if I were you. I'd be putting it in the proverbial locked filing cabinet in a dark cellar down a broken staircase with a beware of the leopard sign on it.

And as Lang says, it wasn't gender critical feminists who did this to the stats. It was Stonewall's relentless push for self ID and a "trans" umbrella that encompassed fetishistic cross dressers. I'd be much more amenable to the "no true trans" argument if people said "you know what, we want to limit 'being trans' to people with genuine gender dysphoria - and the Karen Whites, Davina Ayrtons, Lisa Hauxwells of this world are not true trans, they're male fetishists opportunistically trying to pretend to be something they're not".

But by insisting "trans" is "anyone who says they are", I'm afraid you've sawn off the branch you're sitting on.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/10/2018 09:02

This is a direct quote from the BBC article

"Of the 60 serving time for sexual offences:

27 were convicted of rape (plus a further five of attempted rape)
13 were convicted of possessing, distributing or making indecent images of children
13 were convicted of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault
Nine were convicted of causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
Seven were convicted of sexual activity with a child
Seven were convicted of indecent assault or gross indecency

Those numbers add up to more than 60 because some prisoners are serving time for more than one offence.

We don't know the gender of the victims or perpetrators in these cases".

Well holy fuck. That's rather a lot don't you think? And what the fuck does "we don't know the gender of the victims or perpetrators in these cases" even mean? Leaving aside the unfortunate victims what we have here, I suspect, is very near to 60 prisoners who were born with penises.

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 09:24

But you have taken it out of context

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 09:38

Go on then. Tell me which extra bit of context is missing. I've given a thorough break down of the numbers, borne out by official statistics. (If you want an extra number, how about this one: there are more sex offenders in the male estate than there are offenders in total for all crimes of any sort in the male estate).

While we're at it - do you think Karen White should have been placed in a women's prison?

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 09:39

Damned auto correct - that's more male sex offenders than the total number of female offenders of any sort.

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 09:43

Taken what out of context?

We have known for years that cross dressing is the most common paraphilia among sex offenders.*. We know that Stonewall has extended the definition of trans to include non-dysphoric cross dressers. Ergo, you are going to get a lot of trans sex offenders. It's not a Herculean leap of logic.

The "Karen White PR problem" is not going away. There are hundreds upon thousands more Karen Whites out there and feminists didn't decide to stick them into the "trans community" - Stonewall did.

Like I say, if you don't like it, take it up with Stonewall. You're wasting your time with us. We're well ahead of you.

(*See, for example, Abel 1988: Multiple Paraphilic Diagnoses among Sex Offenders and many other studies from the literature)

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 10:58

I abhor the unfair treatment of women. I think we have a long way to go to find fairness and equal treatment in society. I also think we need protection from violent men. However, I don't understand why targeting a transgender women, who seem to suffer terrible abuse from men and women already, is worthwhile. I understand that we don't want Ian Huntley to be accepted in a women's prison, as he is probably using this as a way of escaping attacks against him (by men) in prison. I think Karen White is an abomination, but these are individual cases. There are many bad apples in the world, but we can't just persecute all transgender women for the sins of a few. This damages genuine transgender women, who suffer enough already. There doesn't seem to be enough separation on this board between a group that should have our support and those who abuse it. You can't suggest that all transgender women are potential sex offenders. And I can't imagine the abuse that many transgender women get when they are put in a male prison.

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 11:00

Also, these statistics have been roundly condemned: www.independent.co.uk/voices/41-per-cent-trans-transgender-trans-women-prisoners-sex-offenders-false-study-statistic-this-is-why-a8072431.html

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 11:03

But by insisting "trans" is "anyone who says they are", I'm afraid you've sawn off the branch you're sitting on.

Love this analogy and am stealing.

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 11:14

Where did I insist that anyone who says they are transgender is transgender?

Feminist4 · 12/10/2018 11:15

But most people who choose to transition, I believe, are genuine and have no ulterior motives

YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/10/2018 11:18

But most people who choose to transition, I believe, are genuine and have no ulterior motives

What do you mean by 'transition'? It is a very loose term. It can mean;

having ones dick and balls chopped off as part of a range of medical and surgical interventions.

'living as a woman' - adopting a female name and clothes.

self-ID-ing as a woman and dressing as a woman when one pleases.

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 11:22

I think Karen White is an abomination... This damages genuine transgender women, who suffer enough already.

I don't know how many times I need to say this to you before it sinks in: take this up with Stonewall.

Stop haranguing feminists. We didn't widen the definition of trans to include a population orders of magnitude more likely to be sex offenders. We didn't campaign for self-ID. We didn't recommend driving a coach and horses through safeguarding frameworks.

If you don't think Karen White is a woman and feel the Karen White case is damaging for genuine transgender women as you put it - take it up with Stonewall and stop bad mouthing the women who have been pointing this out for years.

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 11:24

So which of your links do you want us to belief? The Indy one from 2017, or the more recent BBC fact check one? They seem to contradict one another. (Incidentally, I belief the Ministry of Justice had to concede that FPFW's stats were pretty much right - in fact, if anything, underestimated the gravity of the situation.)

Anyway, back on point - does this mean you don't support self ID? Good, neither do I.

Or do you support it, but just not for Karen White (and if not, why not)?

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 11:24

But I think you know that if you do take it up with Stonewall, you will be told you are an evil bigot and transphobe who is in league with right wing Christian fundamentalist Americans. Like we are. Hence you coming on here and moaning at us instead of moaning at the people whose fault all this actually is.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 11:27

That Owl article is patent nonsense and was debunked in turn by Andrew Gilligan. Figures back up the FPFW findings which were even less than it seems they are, as has been pointed out to you.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 11:30

If you don't think Karen White is a woman and feel the Karen White case is damaging for genuine transgender women as you put it - take it up with Stonewall and stop bad mouthing the women who have been pointing this out for years.

THIS. ALL OF IT.

nottakingthisanymore · 12/10/2018 11:41

So Ian Huntley isn’t really trans, he’s just saying he is to escape attacks from men in prison. How do we know he’s taking the piss? Perhaps we need a system where people like him see a doctor and get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria rather than just letting him state himself he is trans.
Not all men are sex offenders. We don’t know who is and who isn’t so we keep all men out of female spaces because their anatomy and chromosomes place them in the category of humans that are more likely to attack females. Decent men understand why it is not appropriate for them to be in female spaces. Not all TW are attackers either. But the same rule should apply. It is not appropriate for a human with a penis to be in a female space. A third space is needed.

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6 ··· 29 30

Number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims in UK **Title amended by MNHQ**

Number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims in UK Title amended by MNHQ