Number of trans people who are murderers is greater than the number of trans people who are murder victims in UK **Title amended by MNHQ**

[WombOfOnesOwn]

This year, the number of murderers who are transgender is higher in the UK than the number of murder victims.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4156440/Transgender-woman-boyfriend-murdered-flatmate.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4997224/Father-two-stabbed-death-transgender-woman.html

And then there's attempted murders and current murderers declaring themselves trans while behind bars:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jailed-killer-who-chopped-testicles-9882176

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/transgender-murderer-moved-womens-prison-9770465

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/transgender-woman-accused-trying-murder-9569383

www.thesun.co.uk/news/2193637/transgender-female-running-champ-to-be-detained-in-hospital-after-trying-to-murder-top-uk-athletics-official/

Does the fact that MTFs are victimizers in these obscenely violent criminal acts more frequently than they are victims change how lawmakers will see their claims of eternal victimhood? I doubt it. How many male murderers will have to be given elective surgery at taxpayer expense and housed with women (far less likely to be in prison for violent crime) before someone takes a long, hard look at the reality of the situation?

Sophocles

what do you think happens to male patterns of offending when males transition? You disagree with the position here, so what is the substance behind that disagreement?

I don't think we have enough data one way or another. The populations aren't big enough and data gathering is flawed.

Some people are violent criminals, and some of them are trans. One of them is Karen White, who sounds like a very dangerous and disturbed person. But stories of individual criminals are not a good basis for generalisation.

Vulnerable prisoners need protecting. Most of these are women (ie assigned female at birth women). The prison system is terrible and needs mass reform.

I suspect that reducing testosterone is likely to reduce aggression- reference: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/

The position I disagree with here is the idea that conclusions can be drawn from such a statistically insignificant sample.

The position I disagree with here is the idea that conclusions can be drawn from such a statistically insignificant sample.

Then we shouldn't go changing the status quo.

You make an extraordinary claim, that MTFs are less violent than other male people, you need to back it up.

Ereshkigal

Men argued that women shouldn't vote because Bad Things Would Happen. They didn't want to change the status quo either. The sky did not fall in.

The status quo has been changed elsewhere (eg Ireland) and there has been no statistically significant spike in violence perpetrated by trans women.

I did not claim claim that MTFs are less violent than what you term 'other male people'. I said 'I suspect that reducing testosterone is likely to reduce aggression' and I did back it up with a reference: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/

The problem you have there spanna is that plenty of self ID MTFs don't reduce their testosterone.

Ireland is a different country with a much smaller population of trans people and a different legislative framework.

Stop deflecting.

Unless you have evidence that MTF trans people as a cohort of males are less violent than other males, you don't have a leg to stand on.

The position I disagree with here is the idea that conclusions can be drawn from such a statistically insignificant sample.

Then we shouldn't go changing the status quo.

Exactly, how many women are you prepared to sacrifice before you feel there is enough data?

You also say stories of individual criminals are not a good basis for generalisation, however, we use, and have used, generalisation about male violence for years as a basis for segregating male and females, as a basis for safeguarding of children, as a basis for much of the criminal law. We are all well aware that not all men are violent, or sexual predators, or both yet we apply a blanket segregation system and those men that are not violent or sexual predators accept this as being right and don't whinge about it.

I'm dropping this in as a shorthand way of covering some of the many trial design issues with the Batrinos reference above:

“testosterone causes crime and aggression” myth. It’s a fun subject to talk about because the intelligent human physiological system is an amazing system. However, people who are not privy to the literature on testosterone in regards to race, aggression, crime, sex differences etc are only aware of whatever they read in pop science articles. So since they never read the actual papers themselves, they get a clouded view of a subject.

notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/11/29/sex-differences-in-aggressive-behavior-and-testosterone/

You mention Ireland - prisoners in Ireland are housed on the basis of their birth sex irrespective of what gender they identify as.

In general, this is the sort of rigour we're looking for with clinical analyses as well as more widely:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3391330-Prof-Kathleen-Stock-WPUK-speech-at-House-of-Lords-Important-disection-of-the-key-issues-for-MPs-policy-makers-etc-with-ref-to-The-Trans-Equality-Report

Men argued that women shouldn't vote because Bad Things Would Happen. They didn't want to change the status quo either. The sky did not fall in.

JFC. Ludicrous. Desperate.

The position I disagree with here is the idea that conclusions can be drawn from such a statistically insignificant sample.

Why are prisons segregated by sex?

Are you familiar with Chesterton's fence? If not, look it up.

Provide evidence that male pattern offending rates are reduced in the MTF trans population.

Or give up.

WE have plenty enough data on the fact that violence and sexual violence in particular is an overwhelmingly male problem. If transwomen are so statistically insignificant then it makes not a jot of sense to overhaul sex segregation and the protections it provides to cater to this miniscule population, then, does it?

You can't play that one both ways.

As usual, I'm trying to understand the substance of what is being argued here in promotion of changing the current situation of housing all male bodied prisoners away from females.

So far, I'm hearing the people who want to house transwomen with women that it's simply not possible to definitively say that transwomen have the same offending patterns as men, statistically speaking. The conclusion they draw from this supposed blank space is that we shouldn't bother our heads about it, Karen White is an anomaly, and all the warnings about risk are scaremongering along the lines of suggesting bad things will happen by giving women the vote.

So, essentially, it's the be nicer, there will be no problems reason to discard safeguarding. I really don't understand why anyone thinks this is convincing.

LangCleg

I can't

Provide evidence that male pattern offending rates are reduced in the MTF trans population

And I'm not claiming to

Because of the statistically insignificant numbers

Which is the whole problem

With this whole thread

Which I am now exiting

Men argued that women shouldn't vote because Bad Things Would Happen. They didn't want to change the status quo either. The sky did not fall in.

You're comparing women's suffrage with allowing women to be sexually assaulted by men in prison? Seriously, what's wrong with you?

There are 14,000 men in prison for sex offences and 120 women.

Being trans is completely unverifiable. That's the whole point.

Any one of those 14,000 men could get a GRC and get automatic transfer.

One of the very few studies, in Sweden, concluded that transwomen retain male criminal patterns. All the transwomen had a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Expecting someone else to be complicit, unwittingly, in your sexual fetish is sexual assault.

Given autofynephilia is under the trans umbrella, every insistence on female pronouns and treating the person like a woman is forcing everyone to participate in a sexual fetish.

But yeah, it's just like giving women the vote.

And I'm not claiming to

Then we have no reason to believe this is the case.

spannablue
If you're still around, people have been thinking deeply about this issue for a long time. You might find this post interesting.

culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2015/05/17/prevalence-ii-on-prison-placement/

"Here are some things we know because of the Bureau of Justice Statistics. There are nearly twice as many males whose most serious conviction is murder (157,000) and males whose most serious conviction is rape (159,000) in state prison as there are total female prisoners incarcerated for any crime. Once again, much as with the locker room issue, we must ask ourselves: how likely is it that one rapist in a hundred, one murderer in a hundred, would decide to use this strategy to gain access to women?

If one in a hundred of those rapists utilized this strategy, they’d constitute 1,570 people — or nearly two percent of the total number of female prisoners.

It does not take many men–men already proven to be violent, men already proven to have no respect for the boundaries of other human beings–to lie about gender identity to make prison a living hell for women."

Because of the statistically insignificant numbers

What is insignificant about the number of 100 sex offending women prisoners rising to 160 (at least) once trans prisoners are included? Cos a 60% increase doesn't look insignificant to me.

How about an average of 4 women being convicted for the most extreme porn each year but in one year since the new guidelines it was 6, with 3 of them being MTF trans?

Or 4 women being convicted of attempted murder in the same year with 2 of them being MTF trans?

You see, some of us do have the figures and some of us can argue best policy on the basis of them.

Which I am now exiting

Yes, this seems to be a common occurrence when forced to a point of responding substantively. Mind the door on your way out.

Exit stage left, pursued by facts.

It’s ridiculous to suggest transgender women trying to access women only spaces is the same as red -haired men trying to access those spaces. It is exactly the kind of bigoted comment that shows that there Is no understanding of the reasons the vast majority of transgender women want to access these spaces.

Why is it ridiculous? Some transwomen want to access women's spaces because they have nefarious intent. Karen White is the most recent example.
Some red headed men want to access women's spaces because they have nefarious intent. We don't allow it because we understand the risk factors involved in a male body in those spaces, so we keep out all male bodies, including red headed ones.

How do we know which male bodied transwomen are the next Karen White, and which ones just want in and can't take no for an answer, and given that ignoring no is a common thread, how do we tell the difference?

It is exactly the kind of bigoted comment that shows that there Is no understanding of the reasons the vast majority of transgender women want to access these spaces.

There are usually a few reasons, which include:

1. "Validation" of the trans persons declared gender identity
2. Feeling safer in the space of the opposite sex
3. (Rarely now, because we're no longer talking about just transsexuals) visually appearing very similar to the opposite sex and so therefore would confuse others of their own sex if they kept using the biologically-appropriate facility

Third space solutions would solve 2 and 3. It wouldn't solve issue number 1, which is rarely spoken about, and is the real reason why trans activists hate it, I think. Because external validation is key to understanding this issue.

You can then add in all the reasons specialists from the forensic service warned about with dangerous males pretending to be trans, which include:
inducing a false belief that trans status makes someone less dangerous, gaining access to vulnerable populations, separating their "offending self" from their new identity, "explaining away" their sexual offending pattern by saying they were confused about their gender, getting a more lenient sentence or other special treatment.

None of these are enough to discard safeguarding or dismantle single-sex provisions, especially in prison. In fact, the warning from the experts clearly make the case that single-sex separation is vitally important as there are so many reasons for criminals to claim to be trans.

What is also not taken into account of are the equal and competing rights of the members of the opposite sex. Multiple factors must be considered, namely female's right to privacy, dignity, comfort, beliefs, and safety. Single gender creates a biologically mixed-sex space. This should not be done in a let's assume "most women are okay with it" fashion, as protecting the most vulnerable female (a.k.a. natal woman) must be the first priority. All females should be properly informed and consulted, and every female should get an absolute right to veto the presence of any male.

In any case, the thread is about male pattern violence, and the claims regarding murder rates. The illustration of the numbers actually showing you are more likely to be a murderer than become the victim of murder in the UK as a trans woman could really be seen as reassuring to the trans community, right? It's actually good news, I thought. Because these figures seem to suggest you are not significantly more likely to be killed than other people in society just because you are trans.

A natal woman can now be convicted of rape as the definition has changed to include penetration with a penis OR OBJECT into any orifice. Also, a natal woman has always been capable of being convicted of rape if she acts as a material offender in aiding and abetting someone else to commit the actual act of rape, ie. Holds the victim down.

I said 'I suspect that reducing testosterone is likely to reduce aggression' and I did back it up with a reference

I agree with this. And it seems to be backed up with transmen becoming more violent when they start on testosterone. Of course, I believe that male violence is less because of testosterone and more because of how males are brought up to think the world owes them a living, and the fact that women are generally weaker and smaller than them so they dominate and use it to their advantage.

But testosterone levels tbh..matter not one bit with self ID. As no actual transition or even a bloody diagnosis are required!