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Original poster

My daughter is a Wiccan

237 replies

Nonicknamesleft · 06/08/2018 20:40

Just spent some upsetting minutes looking on a few AIBU chats about religion. My shoulders should be broader but I still hate the way Christianity is talked about: it's blasphemous and rude imo. Anyway, so glad to have found this area. Now to the subject of this post:

My eldest of 3 is a girl, almost 12, just going into Y8 at (a CofE) sec school. She is a bright Asperger, prone to the customary obsessive passions typical of the condition.

About a year ago, we wandered into our local park to find Pagan Pride in full swing. I was with other members of my family besides the children, and not wanting to spoil the outing, allowed them all to wander around and look at the crystals, hippie clothes and expensive witchy acoutrements. So natch, dd is now a declared pagan, wearing pentagram necklaces, spending birthday money on runes etc etc. As we walked to this year's PP event yesterday, she told me that she'd never really believed in God but kept quiet to avoid upsetting me. Tbh I don't fully believe her about that but not much point arguing - what do I know?

My current position is generally to be accommodating and as respectful as poss, try to moderate my inclination to argue that it's at best silly and at worst a tiny bit evil. I know I'm being very prejudiced against it because of all the crusty trappings, and I wouldn't dream of being so sniffy about another 'proper' non-Abrahamic faith eg Buddhism.

I'd welcome advice about how to feel and how to play this. I want to just trust that God is on it and will get to the girl in his own sweet time, knowing that she's the sort of person who, if she gets God at all will get him big-time..... but I'm also more than a bit anxious that the current thing will stick.

In theory I'm a great believer in religious autonomy (eg I was raised RC but left it for the CofE) for the young, but am finding it harder to honour in practice. Fwiw she's ace at RE at school, and extremely respectful of other faiths. She deals politely with the rather hard-line Christian peers she has at school who aren't very nice to her about her beliefs. Being autistic, it wouldn't occur to her to be anything other than completely honest about her views, however unpolitic.

So, dear hive, please share your wisdom xx

OP posts:
BearCubX · 06/08/2018 20:47

You should of course respect her beliefs as much as you believe someone should respect yours. Whether it's a teenage phase or not is irrelevant.
At best silly and at worst evil is exactly how I view Christianity.

Sevendown · 06/08/2018 20:51

Calling it evil?

Are we in the middle ages?

Missymoo100 · 06/08/2018 21:07

I was like your daughter at about her age, I was into all things to do with fortune telling in a big way. When I was into that stuff there were lots of strange things that happened in the house that have since stopped. It makes me wonder when I was dabbling with that stuff what was i attracting.
One night I had a dream (a very strange one) that warned me against using the tarot and said I needed to go to church.
I also had a tarot card book I was reading get knocked under some furniture and when I went to retrieve it, it quite literally disappeared! I never found it again.
So I think god has a way of trying to set us right! Pray for your daughter to find god.

Original poster
Nonicknamesleft · 06/08/2018 23:33

Well, Sevendown, evil in that I'm not immune to a lifetime's cultural acclimatisation to the idea that witchcraft and associated practices are dark. That's not an exclusively Christian viewpoint, as the multi-b/million dollar horror fiction and movie industries attest. I did only say a "tiny bit", but perhaps a more palatable way of saying it is that I view it somewhere on a spectrum between creepy and ridiculous. Anyway, surely the middle ages thing was conflating witchcraft with a variety of utterly unrelated characteristics or practices?

No offence BearCubX, but I was rather hoping that I was in the one area of MN where Christianity wouldn't automatically be slagged off.

OP posts:
BearCubX · 07/08/2018 05:39

@Nonicknamesleft you're missing my point- I slagged off christianity no more than you slagged off your daughters current beliefs.

speakout · 07/08/2018 06:26

God is on it and will get to the girl in his own sweet time

Disgusting.

Your feelings about religion are no more valid that hers.

What gives you top trumps?

speakout · 07/08/2018 06:39

I view it somewhere on a spectrum between creepy and ridiculous.

You need to educate yourself.

Why is witchcraft viewed as creepy and evil?
Bigger questions- like why does the church despise women so much?

The answers may be closer than you think.

Ventiamore · 07/08/2018 06:53

My current position is generally to be accommodating and as respectful as poss, try to moderate my inclination to argue that it's at best silly and at worst a tiny bit evil
Sorry, but your comments make it pretty obvious that you are not accommodating or respectful of her chosen path. Otherwise why would you point out that you wouldn't be as sniffy about Buddhism, for example? And keep bringing your own christian beliefs into it?
speakout called it - you need to educate yourself. Particularly about the role and behaviour of the church in the middle ages, and the actual beliefs followed by Pagans. Otherwise, I can't help feeling this has been written as a passive aggressive sort of goady post. Your daughter is exploring her personal belief system. It may change over time, or it may not. Whatever, you shouldn't be trying to influence her either way.

Missymoo100 · 07/08/2018 07:46

“Speak out” the irony of your post! saying that her view point is no more valid than her daughters- whilst constantly coming on here to bash religious people having a view different to your own. Why don’t you try respecting others view points. You are quite clearly nothing but a hypocrite.

Op has said nothing out of place here or wrong, she is entitled to air her thoughts on an anonymous forum. Seriously the nastiness on this forum is ridiculous. The atheists on here always saying we don’t need religion just “be nice”... whilst clearly demonstrating that they are incapable of being “nice”or respectful to someone else’s point of view, striving to be as rude as possible.

Re church in Middle Ages and witch hunts... the church wasn’t interested in witches they said it wasn’t biblical- it was the public that kept pressing the issue with the church because they wanted to blame someone for crop failures etc. it was hysteria over an issue that stemmed from the public that the church got roped into. People like Matthew Hopkins witch hunter general were getting rich out of it and people were making money.
It was people such as John Gaule a vicar that called for it to be stopped,
And put an end to the witch trials.

Missymoo100 · 07/08/2018 07:53

Speakout

Your over the top posts “ie -disgusting” and feigning your indignation at op is pathetic.

And the people saying “educate yourself” you clearly think you are a cut above in the intelligence stakes, obviously thinking yourselves more “educated” than everyone else.. for the record it doesn’t make you sound good, it makes you sound condescending and disrespectful.

SurvivedTheirTeens · 07/08/2018 07:56

I've spent a lifetime trying to find "my" people. How wonderful your dd has foun d hers so early.

speakout · 07/08/2018 07:57

So witch hunts were nothing to do with the church?

Nothing to do with male dominance?

ClaudiaWankleman · 07/08/2018 08:02

I think asking what came first - the church or misogyny is like asking about the chicken and the egg.

Both trace their origins back to the beginning a of civilisation, and probably before it. They have developed simultaneously. The church didn’t cause male dominance any more than our modern day political system did.

Missymoo100 · 07/08/2018 08:03

And her daughter is 11!!! a CHILD, so her mother has every right to guide her daughter, and impart her advice- it’s what a good parent does.
when you talk about her being respectful of her daughters decisions- her daughter is 11!!!!! 11 year olds make stupid decisions all the time, is she supposed to cut her child loose and let her do what she wants without ever showing concern.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 07/08/2018 08:07

I've done a lot of work on the boundaries between paganism and Christianity which means I have friends who are on both sides. What isn't immediately clear when you start looking at the world of paganism and Wicca is how diverse it is and how many strands there are. So don't look at the worst and assume all are like that. A minority of Christians are fundamentalists. A minority of pagans are heirs to the excesses of Alistair Crowley.

If you want to educate yourself about what paganism is and isn't then read Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the Moon as the author is both an academic and familiar with the pagan scene.

If there is a Forest Church near you it might be worth a look as it aims to encounter the divine in the natural world in a Christian context.

Ventiamore · 07/08/2018 08:07

The church didn’t cause male dominance any more than our modern day political system did.
Maybe not, but it has encouraged and perpetuated it. I know a lot of good Christians who regularly have to speak out about the ingrained patriarchy which still exists today, even in their own church.

Missymoo100 · 07/08/2018 08:09

Speak out
Yes, but let’s not overplay the role of the church in the witch hunts- it was a lot to do with the public and you ha e discounted certain religious figures were instrumental in stopping it.
Before Judaism /Christianity-
Pagans used to have sacred temple prostitution where women had to serve for a period of time and had to have sex with men. So it’s probably why women until recently hadn’t ministered in church because pagans mixed sex into religion and judaism/Christianity separated it out so that the lines weren’t blurred and women exploited as they had been.

Missymoo100 · 07/08/2018 08:12

Under roman law pre Christianity a man had legal rights to kill his wife and children - patria potestas... pedastry was also widely practice, where young males were kidnapped for men to have sex with. It was also acceptable to keep females as sex slaves...
So I think perhaps Christianity has done much to protect women and children,

Ventiamore · 07/08/2018 08:13

is she supposed to cut her child loose and let her do what she wants without ever showing concern.
Of course not. But saying she hopes God will find the girl in the end (or whatever it was) is clearly showing that she doesn't consider any other religious option as a valid choice for her daughter. Of course children of this age are finding their own way and looking into anything which catches their interest. But even OP says herself that her daughter's choice is not a 'proper' one. Not sure why it isn't as valid as any other belief system? Surely a respectful and accepting person who accept all religion based belief systems as equally valid for those who believe in them?
Not bashing christianity, btw, before someone tries to argue that.

Ventiamore · 07/08/2018 08:17

Pagans used to have sacred temple prostitution where women had to serve for a period of time and had to have sex with men. So it’s probably why women until recently hadn’t ministered in church because pagans mixed sex into religion and judaism/Christianity separated it out so that the lines weren’t blurred and women exploited as they had been.
Can you cite your academic source on this, or is it a personal belief? My (christian) dh does not agree so I would be interested to find out.

Missymoo100 · 07/08/2018 08:21

Surely a respectful and accepting person who accept all religion based belief systems as equally valid for those who believe in them?

No, because as a Christian I believe my faith is true... if I didn’t it wouldn’t be belief. I can’t view all religions as equally valid and be an adherent of Christianity, it would be a contradiction.

Il find you a source for the scared temple prostitution

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 07/08/2018 08:25

The issue of witch hunts generates more heat than light. This is the academic resource on Scottish witchcraft www.shca.ed.ac.uk/Research/witches/introduction.html

The OP is asking about info for her daughter who is year 8. Paganism in my experience, note that phrase, is less organised by its very nature so it is not like the guides or the girls brigade where all the leaders are DBS checked. It isn't easy to work out what the different paths are. There are some very odd people out there and not all of them are benign. Maybe the pagans and wiccans here could offer some constructive advice to help the OP navigate a new spiritual landscape.

Ventiamore · 07/08/2018 08:27

I understand your explanation missymoo, but denying the validity of others beliefs is not accepting of others in my book. I'll agree to disagree on that.

Missymoo100 · 07/08/2018 08:31

Had a quick look and there’s tons of articles and scholarly work online just type in “sacred temple prostitution”....

Here’s a one that’s fairly light from bbc about temple prostitution

www.bbc.com/culture/story/20161017-it-was-an-ancient-form-of-sex-tourism

“In Cyprus it appears that before marriage all women were formerly obliged by custom to prostitute themselves to strangers at the sanctuary of the goddess,”

Missymoo100 · 07/08/2018 08:34

Ventiamore-
I am respectful to them and I can make efforts to understand their belief, but that doesn’t mean I have to actually believe it myself. In the same way an atheist can respect people who are religious and have awareness of religious belief, without believing that it is true.