My daughter is a Wiccan

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Just spent some upsetting minutes looking on a few AIBU chats about religion. My shoulders should be broader but I still hate the way Christianity is talked about: it's blasphemous and rude imo. Anyway, so glad to have found this area. Now to the subject of this post:

My eldest of 3 is a girl, almost 12, just going into Y8 at (a CofE) sec school. She is a bright Asperger, prone to the customary obsessive passions typical of the condition.

About a year ago, we wandered into our local park to find Pagan Pride in full swing. I was with other members of my family besides the children, and not wanting to spoil the outing, allowed them all to wander around and look at the crystals, hippie clothes and expensive witchy acoutrements. So natch, dd is now a declared pagan, wearing pentagram necklaces, spending birthday money on runes etc etc. As we walked to this year's PP event yesterday, she told me that she'd never really believed in God but kept quiet to avoid upsetting me. Tbh I don't fully believe her about that but not much point arguing - what do I know?

My current position is generally to be accommodating and as respectful as poss, try to moderate my inclination to argue that it's at best silly and at worst a tiny bit evil. I know I'm being very prejudiced against it because of all the crusty trappings, and I wouldn't dream of being so sniffy about another 'proper' non-Abrahamic faith eg Buddhism.

I'd welcome advice about how to feel and how to play this. I want to just trust that God is on it and will get to the girl in his own sweet time, knowing that she's the sort of person who, if she gets God at all will get him big-time..... but I'm also more than a bit anxious that the current thing will stick.

In theory I'm a great believer in religious autonomy (eg I was raised RC but left it for the CofE) for the young, but am finding it harder to honour in practice. Fwiw she's ace at RE at school, and extremely respectful of other faiths. She deals politely with the rather hard-line Christian peers she has at school who aren't very nice to her about her beliefs. Being autistic, it wouldn't occur to her to be anything other than completely honest about her views, however unpolitic.

So, dear hive, please share your wisdom xx

Country has everything to do with it. In the U.K. we thankfully have laws to protect us from this kind of extreme behaviour (ie torture/killing people.) Those days are long gone..

Like, i disagree-
Humans are the same as they were a thousand years ago nothing’s changed about human nature.
When you say “county” you actually mean culture and ethical law.. which in the uk has been largely shaped by Christianity.
Since people have turned their noses up at the belief systems that have afforded them so many rights- we may well be back on a slippery slope.

I mean why do you think we have laws we have? Or our ethical system if not Christianity?

You think you can just remove the foundation of those rights and they will continue forever?

You have to let them believe what they want to.
I was a Christian and my children were until leaving Primary.
One by one they told me they didn't believe in God, it's up to them what belief or philosophy they have.
I am now interested in paganism, don't know much but learning.
my dh has no belief, I certainly wouldn't try to control my families beliefs, that is weird.
Your dd is old enough o make up her own mind, and You as a christian should accept this.
It's you who shouldn't worship another God, not your child who isn't a Christian.
If you force this you will drive a wedge, you should support her decision, regardless of your belief.

Again likeido, I assert that Part of the peace that people gain from Islam, the complete opposite of the headlines about anger and burning violence, is freedom from superstition. We believe Your born, you live, you die. Shit happens, Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. Do good anyway, Stick to Prayer, be sober, the devil can never have power only God has power. in that is still lots of warmth, spirituality, connection with the Divine. Even at its most benign, I would fear my child falling susceptible to any belief system that could make them look upon people in need as earning bad karma/ earning evil in their lives.

As to statistics about Christian persecution do you disagree with me that the number one country for Christian religious persecution is atheist North Korea? That’s easily Googleable. And There it really is the threat of Christian beliefs and potential loyalty to someone other than the dear leader. A variation of the same suspicion that caused catholic persecution in the UK- fear of papal loyalty to something outside the state.

Crikey OP people are ignoring the fact that she is autistic and vulnerable I get why you are concerned.
I think you need to exercise control over who she is meeting with through this.
If she goes to meetings, I would go too and explain loudly to whichever pagan is in charge that she is autistic and ask what their safeguarding policies are.
If she is in online groups you need to join them too.
The fact that you have a mild antipathy to paganism is neither here nor there. Keep her safe until the phase either ends or mellows.

You know, I am tremendously impressed with what the human race has achieved.

In a few thousand years we have eliminated diseases that have killed millions, tripled the average human life expectancy, developed technology that can feed billions not millions. We have split the atom, created democracy, fought for the rights of people who are our enemies and put men on the moon.

I could go on but you get the idea.

And yet here in 2018, on an internet forum populated by presumably western educated adults, I'm engaged in a conversation with people who think that magic spells work

I genuinely don't know what to make of it.

If you think that magic is in any way real, then I'm sorry, but your parents and your education have failed you, because you don't know how to think properly.

, because you don't know how to think properly.

There is danger in that thought.

And yet here in 2018, on an internet forum populated by presumably western educated adults, I'm engaged in a conversation with people who think that magic spells work

I presume you would agree magic spells can have a powerful psychological impact upon the people who believe they do something? Which can affect their emotions and behaviour in real life. It is enough.

You don't have to believe they work in the same way a practitioners of the craft do but it is not nonsensical they can and do work to affect people's lives at least in the way I have explained.

This has to be a wind up

Your daughter is only 12 and I think it is just a phase.

My son was into conspiracy theories and David Icke at one time and went on and on about them endlessly. I just listened and nodded. He outgrew it.

With paganism, it's all very 'pretty' and atm is quite fashionable. Just make sure she doesn't start tattooing and having piercings all over the place, she is too young for that and would doubtless regret it later.

A year or so and your daughter will have other interests. Please don't worry - there's nothing you can do about it anyway.

Missfattyfatty - certainly in Chrstinanity you have to adhere to certain conditions before qualifying for entry to heaven. So whilst on earth the sum of all your actions, as dictated by the specific rules as set by the said religion, (and as a former Roman Catholic, we have/had some truly shocking corkers!), will either send you to heaven or hell? Isn’t that a terrifically superstitious way to live, always worrying that you may lose gods favour because you haven’t followed some archaic rules for salvation? But by the same measure looking at those who have fallen in life, somehow, and being considered as “bad” or “evil” for say not believing that Jesus died for my sins etc. What would happen to people like me, in a strict religious view - am I going to hell because I am bad sinner, as I was told because I completely lapsed from my religion of birth., and have now my own informed opinions and beliefs, in oppose to what I was conditioned to believe from birth. I don’t pray, I meditate. I don’t believe in the biblical god, but certainly believe in something that is more than just us and this world. I like a drink occasionally, but I think I am a good person, but maybe to other religious people don’t think so. OPs daughter should be allowed to explore alternative beliefs without any scaremongering.

Has anyone heard of the “great rite” of Wicca.... apparently the founder Gerald gardener, intended the high priestess once reached a level of attainment would have sex with the priest, and once she was older she should give her place up to a younger model.
When I mentioned sex magic earlier I was called ignorant even though I know it is a part of paganism.
So in this use of sexual rituals we go straight back to the ancient temple prostitution I talked about at the beginning.
As I said we are really just coming full circle.

Oh here’s a little convo I just found on a Wicca discussion forum:

“The Great Rite, where the high priest and priestess engage in sacred coitus while invoking the Lord and Lady of the rite being celebrated, is a very special sacred circumstance... rare enough I never saw one performed. If I remember correctly only 2nd degrees can attend anyways, which means working closely with said priest and priestess for a minimum of three years and three days.”

Yes all sounds perfectly wonderful, suffice to say I wouldn’t encourage my 11 year old to get too involved

Has anyone heard of the “great rite” of Wicca.... apparently the founder Gerald gardener, intended the high priestess once reached a level of attainment would have sex with the priest, and once she was older she should give her place up to a younger model.

Um ... that actually sounds a lot as though it's been lifted straight out of the Mists of Avalon, i.e. a work of fiction (albeit a decent read if you happen to be into fantasy and have an employment contract with a seriously generous annual leave clause).

Do you mean this, somewhat less literal take on sex?

Missy have you been trawling Wicca discussion forums all day to find something juicy?

You are dangerously invested in this whole 'sex magic' idea.

If you like the thought of it, you can just tell us.

I think you just need to get out more.

Isnt Paganism basically a catch all term for thousands of different religions or belief systems? In fact I'm pretty sure it has been used to refer to any non-Abrahamic religion, including Buddhism which is aparrently fine according to the OP. I don't see what a young girl talking about nature spells has to do with the religious and cultural practices of practicioners of Voodoo, or Ancient Romans, or Vikings, or Druids, or anything else that comes under the wide and vague umbrella that is Paganism. A few people dressing up and hanging around Stonehenge isn't going to lead to widespread human sacrifice ffs.

Some have substituted the act using symobolic substitutions but it’s real and is practiced by some covens.

I was just reading through the Wicca discussion on the subject where I copied it from, there’s more on there;

The sex only happens in the 3rd degree, if at all, so is not in any way necessary for involvement. But it IS a big reason that Gardnerians have this restriction re: homosexuality and prefer to only initiate partnered heterosexual witches. It's really more of a result of Gardner's own prejudices and preferences, much like the inclusion of light bdsm and ritual nudity.. I have heard of no other established non-Gardnerian descendant tradition bar homosexuals.. QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

Totally suitable for an 11 year old autistic child. I didn’t spend long on the net to come across this.

Patriarchy.
Found it in a few minutes
I also think you need to get out more instead of trolling religious people on forums.

I personally think the concept of karma is problematic. Someone gets cancer is that karma? Someone’s house burns down is that karma? starving African babies is that their karma?
But it's okay to say this is God's will? Same thing really, isn't it?

certainly in Chrstinanity you have to adhere to certain conditions before qualifying for entry to heaven
And you can have done any kind of bad thing, but as long as you confess your sins you'll be forgiven and will get to heaven?

Some have substituted the act using symobolic substitutions but it’s real and is practiced by some covens.
Yes, and child abuse is real and is practiced by some Christians in positions of authority.

This thread hasn't moved on much since I last checked in. There are ppl personally practicing a pagan faith who have come on and explained the benign practice they follow, only to be countered by others who pull up the more extreme or unsavory (to them) examples and use this as a reason for OP to dismiss her daughter's interest.

Wouldn't that be the same as me constantly bringing up burning witches, institutional child abuse and many christians acting against women or homosexuals in the church (which I have personally experienced)?

Surely the most caring and sensible thing for OP to do would be to research the age appropriate, positive and nature based aspects of paganism, and support and direct her daughter in this? PP have already detailed these, but it appears a lot of ppl on here would rather argue about negative aspects which are v v unlikely to impact on the girl. Knowledge is the key OP. And that which comes from practitioners, not those ppl in opposition.

Vent exactly. It's no use trying to explain your beliefs when some are so intent on bringing up the extreme and unsavoury in order to prove some point. Especially when every religion has them, including Christianity past and present...

It's all batshit crazy stuff (all religions) so choose your flavour and crack on! Just don't make it compulsory

For me one of the biggest messages to come away from with the abrahamic holy books is that bad things happen to good people. The early Hebrew prophets went through many trials and tribulations. In the abrahamic tradition the stronger the faith the harder the tests. this is one of the comforting platitudes said to people undergoing some bad happenstance.

That goes a long way in building resilience to life’s disappointments venti, saying ‘God’s Will’. In such a scenario, community comes together to comfort and wish a sufferer well, ‘God loves you’, ‘have patience’ ‘didn’t the prophet bear this same blow?’ etc etc. Flip that over to a karmic or reincarnation based model -feature of many pagan belief systems - and such unfortuneates may be isolated, derided, run out of town or the village lest their ill fortune/bad luck spreads to others. BeCause they must have done something wrong for this to happen to them.

Neither suppositions can be true of course, and maybe all just the workings of a universe that totally doesn’t care. But the starting point has a large effect on ones psychological well being. And then it effects how you see other peoples’ suffering, as ‘deserved’, or as a situation one should be moved to help. ‘There but by the grace of God’.

Incidentally It’s not a big jump from karma to the capitalist idea that the poor are poor because of some inner defect. Not just abroad but right here. People relying on food banks abject because of austerity cuts, or homelessness - it’s their laziness/stupidity/disorganisation etc. We are acclimatised to this message from childhood when told ‘good children get presents’ and ‘bad children don’t get presents’. Ones fortunes are only because of individual intrinsic ‘karma’ never extrinsic institutional or societal failings.

Anyway good luck OP.

OP, if you're worried about your daughter coming into contact with unsavoury people through this, perhaps it would be a good idea to keep her focussed on the nature/cycle foundations of paganism. Would suggest perhaps the following for both of you:

• Pagan Paths by Pete Jennings
• The Wheel of the Wiccan Year by Gail Duff

The first gives an overview of the different types and might help you navigate and choose the right path. The second is a collection of some really nice rituals, with an explanation of their roots and some general interest stuff, which she can follow through the year. Maybe also something like The Hedgerow Handbook by Adele Nozedar or other hedgerow/foraging recipe book, which is a benign direction to focus in.

It strikes me that things like cauldrons, pentacles and the like are all just trappings that help some people focus on ritual, or to make things feel more special. A cauldron is really handy for making a mess in if you are mixing herbs together, setting fire to bits and pieces etc, but that's it. I personally believe witchcraft originated from the kitchen fireside. A lot of women would have had a cauldron-type thing to mix food, remedies, tinctures etc. That's all a cauldron is. I used a pyrex casserole dish from the kitchen for a long time, which I reckon would have been the current version of a cauldron. It's the INTENT that's important. I get that a cauldron might make things feel more special and help people focus intent (or can just be a semi-ironic decoration), but really it's just something fireproof to make a mess in.

I kind of think this is important, because it's easy for people to get caught up in the image of the thing rather than the intent, and I think that's more likely to lead people into dodgy groups and practices. Maybe helping her to focus on the simplicity of the faith and consider what her intentions are could help? To make sure a spell (or prayer) harms no one, you have to really think about what all potential consequences could be, and that's a good way to practise empathy and think about things from other people's perspectives. Maybe that's something you can help her focus on?

Just a few thoughts, anyway.