My daughter is a Wiccan

[Nonicknamesleft]

Just spent some upsetting minutes looking on a few AIBU chats about religion. My shoulders should be broader but I still hate the way Christianity is talked about: it's blasphemous and rude imo. Anyway, so glad to have found this area. Now to the subject of this post:

My eldest of 3 is a girl, almost 12, just going into Y8 at (a CofE) sec school. She is a bright Asperger, prone to the customary obsessive passions typical of the condition.

About a year ago, we wandered into our local park to find Pagan Pride in full swing. I was with other members of my family besides the children, and not wanting to spoil the outing, allowed them all to wander around and look at the crystals, hippie clothes and expensive witchy acoutrements. So natch, dd is now a declared pagan, wearing pentagram necklaces, spending birthday money on runes etc etc. As we walked to this year's PP event yesterday, she told me that she'd never really believed in God but kept quiet to avoid upsetting me. Tbh I don't fully believe her about that but not much point arguing - what do I know?

My current position is generally to be accommodating and as respectful as poss, try to moderate my inclination to argue that it's at best silly and at worst a tiny bit evil. I know I'm being very prejudiced against it because of all the crusty trappings, and I wouldn't dream of being so sniffy about another 'proper' non-Abrahamic faith eg Buddhism.

I'd welcome advice about how to feel and how to play this. I want to just trust that God is on it and will get to the girl in his own sweet time, knowing that she's the sort of person who, if she gets God at all will get him big-time..... but I'm also more than a bit anxious that the current thing will stick.

In theory I'm a great believer in religious autonomy (eg I was raised RC but left it for the CofE) for the young, but am finding it harder to honour in practice. Fwiw she's ace at RE at school, and extremely respectful of other faiths. She deals politely with the rather hard-line Christian peers she has at school who aren't very nice to her about her beliefs. Being autistic, it wouldn't occur to her to be anything other than completely honest about her views, however unpolitic.

So, dear hive, please share your wisdom xx

I was Wiccan at her age for about a year. I'm 23 now and am not - it was just cool, I loved the books and the fun spells. Let her enjoy herself :)
Although I became agnostic rather than Christian.

All i intended was that it’s not as established as mainstream religions which now have safeguarding and not clearly defined, therefore there are inherent risks.
I know plenty of what you have said, and it’s not balanced- but I don’t care what you think, and I’m certainly not going to hint at involving the “Christian federation” for goodness sake really.

I think you’ll find I haven’t said anything factually inaccurate either

At best silly and at worst evil is exactly how I view Christianity

Me too but I think Wiccan is even sillier.

OP, she is still young so I’d treat it as I would other teen fad. If she wasn’t wasting her money on runes she would be wasting it on fluffy pencil cases or something similar. I suspect that it’s a way of her making herself feel cool and different. Better to be because of that than because of being Autistic (in her eyes iyswim).

Have you spoken to anyone else who knows her well such as a teacher to get their opinions.

I suspect you won’t get too many useful answers on Mumsnet especially as you have inadvertently written an OP that was so likely to cause a ‘bunfight’

I haven't said anything factually inaccurate

Other than the sex magic and the temple prostitute thing obvs.

🤨

Also, not sure why you posted in the religion topic? Presumably you were after parenting advice rather than a religious argument/discussion

Yes which is er, true......

Oops better hide the Wicca federation might come knocking...

You forget that in my first post I said I was into witchcraft when I was younger- so I do have a clue of what it is and what it can include.

In fact patriarchy if you bother to read the temple prostitution article there was a link I posted for a previous poster about it and we were talking about a particular topic at the time ... so I’m not sure why you have decided your so offended

I think that you need to get over yourself. You have your beliefs, your daughter has hers. Don't assume that hers are wrong and yours are right and she should ascribe to them just because her religion isn't 'proper' enough for you.

What exactly is it you are worried about?

I have been both a pagan and a Christian in my time, and there's not as much difference between them as you might think.

My experience (and I am making him he generalisations here - I can think of plenty of exceptions from both groups) is that paganism tends to be more contemplative and inwardly focussed than Christianity, and there is more of focus on changing yourself to come closer to God and less on changing others. I found it more inclusive, loving and adaptable to people's changing circumstances than Christianity. I also found a depth to prayer that is harder to find in Christianity.

My experience of Christianity is that there is much more of an outward community focus. There is more emphasis on serving the wider community, and of spending time in community even with people we dislike. There is a richer history of art and theology. I also found Christianity to feel much more bound up in rigid hierarchies, and far less egalitarian and inclusive, in particular of women and LGBTQ people.

There are all kinds of people in both.

It can be hard for young pagans to get sensible instruction, as children and young people tend only to be included in established groups of they have been brought up in the tradition, and classes for newcomers tend only to be open to adults, so you do tend up end up with teenagers reading a lot of stuff online, some good and some bad and coming up with their own practice. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, and as people grow up and mature, so does their spirituality, regardless of faith.

So my advice would be to talk to her openly, and listen to what she has to say without picking up on minore differences or criticisms. I think that both faiths have a lot they can learn from each other. And it's perfectly ok to have questions and concerns and to challenge anything that you think might be harmful or dangerous, just as I hope you would of she was part of a Christian youth group.

Missymoo

Which is true

In 5th century BC Cyprus.

🤨

Tell me more about how implying that 2500 year old Greek sexual practices relates to modern Pagans and constitutes a real safeguarding risk to anyone attending a pagan event in the UK definitely isn't 'a written, false defamation'

I'm sure nobody from the UK Pagan Council is reading this so you are probably ok, but who knows?

🤔

Patriarchy,

I was talking to a P.P about the role of women in the church and how they had been exploited by earlier religious practices ie temple prostitution it was in response to a question. You clearly haven’t read the context of what i was saying.

Also can you not accept that some areas of witchcraft/mystical thinking/occultism can be harmful-
For instance Victoria Climbe and other children have been killed in part because of mystical belief in black magic.

Missymoo

I think all religions are harmful, however as they go, allowing your child to mess around with runes/pentagrams/black cats is infinitely safer than allowing her into the hold of some of the Christian groups I have seen operate in my area.

I'd be very interested to see the stats (if they exist) around the number of people who participate in Paganism/Wicca and then subsequently complain of abuse/child sex exploitation etc, then compare that to the same figures but for people who experienced those things within Christianity/Islam/Judaism.

I'm willing to bet that would be an 'interesting' comparison.

Thank you @missymoo100, but you misunderstood me. I have no doubt that sex was an integral part of early religious practices, it was the latter part of your paragraph which I questioned as being academic, or your personal opinion.

Pagans used to have sacred temple prostitution where women had to serve for a period of time and had to have sex with men. So it’s probably why women until recently hadn’t ministered in church because pagans mixed sex into religion and judaism/Christianity separated it out so that the lines weren’t blurred and women exploited as they had been.

Well most of the time it’s adults seeking to sexually exploit children by abuse of power rather than religious teaching. Which I think you’ll find doesn’t find its boundaries within religion or non religion. Do you not think child abuse applies to atheists? Look at the scandals with children’s homes and football clubs
Some mystical thinking does contribute to child abuse though ie by thoughts of purging evil spirits through toture, beatings etc which is actually on the rise in the uk.
Atheism doesn’t really provide any answers, ie prior to Christianity it was acceptable to leave infants exposed to die.
And it’s not that humans are in any way more advanced now by virtue of themselves, nothing has changed between the ancients leaving their children to die and now. Humans by nature are just the same.

And I'm not really sure why bringing in a sad child abuse case helps your argument any - there are abusive persons subscribing to every imaginable religion on Earth.

(And to quote a report of The Climbie trial
Carl Manning and Marie Therese Kouao are charged with the murder of Victoria Climbie. During police interviews both claim that Victoria was possessed.
Not sure where you were going with this, as exorcism has been a well known practice in the Christian church, which is also a belief in possession, is it not?)

Tbh op I think you would to well to do some research and encourage your daughter to do the same. Read books there are plenty out there.

I'm a pagan and 3 of my children attend a Catholic school. My oldest at the school made his own choice about being a pagan but he also wanted to worship the Christian god and the virgin Mary. I spoke to his head teacher and she was so lovely about the whole thing and very accepting. We had a conversation about what paganism was to me and my children who followed the path.
There are many branches of paganism it isn't a 1 size fits all religion. I started as wiccan as a preteen and by the time I was 20 I was exploring paganism as a whole. I didn't only read books on paganism but books on mythology and history.

As for the evil comment wicca promotes a very peaceful path the wiccan rede states an it harm none do what ye will. It's basically means that wiccan s shouldn't do anything that will hurt someone or do anything that makes a person do something against their own free will.

I understand that wicca isn't totally the norm to other religions. The first reactions I had were "you've joined a cult you must stop now". So you aren't the first to have concerns but honestly it isn't like that and if you asked on here about people's experiences with paganism you would find that most go solo.

Ventiamore I appreciate your point and I concur on abuse occurring across all religions and of course it is not limited to religion either, as my last post said, but I was rather trying to make the point that not all mystical/occultic thought is harmless, in that it’s not always just cute black cats, magic wands, and hocus pocus. Although I expect for most kids it is harmless fun.

OP here. Thank you, some really useful and understanding thoughts here amongst the customary tiresome responses to my Christianity. As I said, I naively thought that for once MN it might be possible to be Christian without the slagging but so much for that.

OK, some direct responses. First, thank you Missymoo x Your post about all the African etc stuff describes the really extreme end of why I have reservations about witchcraft. I'm sorry, I've been socially conditioned to find that all that stuff worrying. I don't think that it's the same as the apparently good-hearted pagan belief system around our connection to the earth. That seems to be just a difference of faith and doctrine, much like the distinction between me and a Sikh or a Muslim. Part of my difficulty is not knowin where the separations between the various beliefs and practices on display at Pagan Pride are, so I take all your points about reading and getting a bit more clued up.

Let me be absolutely clear about the fact that I do not think all other religions beside Christianity are evil, mumbo-jumbo etc. On the contrary actually, which is why I'm struggling with my own feelings about this. I categorically do not think pagans, wiccans etc are deviants, child molesters or whatever.

Greenglassteacup: good question, thank you. The former, I'm pretty sure.

A bit of further context here, lest ye think I am ramming my faith down her neck (I don't think even she would see it like that). Anyway, as I said she's the eldest of 3. Middle child does identify quite strongly with family's Christian ethos, and finds eldest's constant talk about her new beliefs a bit upsetting. I have to referee that. Youngest is open to both but is very up for being convinced that a religion with pretty things like crystals and lovely earthy gods is much more fun that dull old church.

Most significantly, a detail about the main dd here that probably was a bit lost in my OP. She is autistic, thus, any interest, idea, belief etc is taken up full time and with great passion. So, this is pretty much the only thing on her mind. It's the summer hols obvs, so most of the other distractions of life are not available. However, she does see friends and because of the keen[n?]ess of her interest, talks constantly to them about it too. As her parent, that is something I may be held accountable for by theirs. Interestingly, none were available to accept her invitation to go to PP.

The main thing about her ASD is that she talks about this all the time to whoever will listen. And when I say "talk to", I mean it literally. There is not much 2-way conversation, except that all speeches finish with the question, "so what do you think, mum?" or "what do you think of my runes, mum?" or "why would you have a problem with me getting a cauldron, mum?".

The fact that I don't just trill "oh, I think that's lovely sweetie" doesn't make me a fundamentalist, I don't think, so shoot me. What do I think? I think it gives me a tight feeling in my tummy and, knowing my daughter and how things go with her, as a Christian mother in the context of a family with a range of views I'm not sure what to say - because I'm trying to balance my desire to respect her views whilst being true to my own, and giving her the moral direction I think is my job.......
...... Which is why I started this thread, in the hope of getting some good and well-meant advice, so really sincere thank you to everyone that has tried to give some. I know loads of you are atheists and think I shouldn't want my children to grow up with the same views and beliefs as me, but if you have religious faith of any sort, it kind of goes with the territory.

Ah, just also now seen this last page of posts. Some brilliant, thank you. You know who you are, I'm sure.

I don't know how to copy posts so a specific response:
^PitchBlackNight Tue 07-Aug-18 09:35:01
Also, not sure why you posted in the religion topic? Presumably you were after parenting advice rather than a religious argument/discussion.^
Why? Er, in good faith because I thought it was the right place. Particularly because I thought it was an area where we wouldn't get into the good/bad religion duel. Ha bloody ha.

^Racecardriver Tue 07-Aug-18 09:45:43
I think that you need to get over yourself. You have your beliefs, your daughter has hers. Don't assume that hers are wrong and yours are right and she should ascribe to them just because her religion isn't 'proper' enough for you.^
Please see my previous post as to why getting over myself isn't an adequate response. And why my blood pressure has just soared, reading that.

Urgh. I just read back over my post and am cringing at the typos. I hope what I wrote was comprehensible. I wish there was an edit option.

It was totally comprehensible and utterly brilliant. Thank you

If she is interested in your opinions, why not engage an actually discuss the issues?

Think about the essential differences and similarities between Paganism and Christianity. Discuss why you are a Christian.

I, myself do not really doubt witchcraft/Paganism can have a powerful psychology effect upon a person which in turn can affect life events. My own personal issue with witchcraft is that without a higher authority (God/Christ) there is little guidance in terms of what the outcomes of casting spells may be. In Christianity when we ask for things in prayer we ask for things that are God's will. We submit to God's will and believe in the good of His will. With casting spells a person is exercising their will to cast the spell and effect themselves, other people and events. There is no higher power considered and no great authority on whether outcomes might be beneficial or not.

So, whether spell casting causes any real physical effect or not, if the belief is there that is will there is much opportunity for 'mistakes' and the resultant guilt involved.

I am a witch and so is my 20 year old daughter. She was sent to Catholic school until grade 12. My belief system has never been hidden from my children but none have been with me when I practice ritual or do spell work. My daughter came to the path through her own curiously and feeling of not being connect to Judeo Christian religion.
Please know Wiccans/Pagans are not Satanists. Satan is a Christian belief. I can’t speak for all Pagans or Wiccans but ours is an earth/nature loving religion. Some of us worship many Goddesses and Gods, some only one or two, some worship no deities.
Educate yourself on the subject. Try to keep chatting with your daughter about her beliefs. Maybe find what’s drawing her to be a Wiccan at this time in her life.

@hihello, stop speaking nonsense about a religion you are not familiar with. Spells are a particularly persistent and effective form of prayers for Wiccans who choose to do them. Many Wiccans follow a reed that lets us know whatever we put out into the universe will come back to us. This tends to make you very careful about what and how you pray for something.

SecretWitch, do not presume I have no experience concerning what I have said. Two people, particularly close to me, got their fingers burnt with practising witchcraft. They cast spells which they considered to have worked, got pretty dramatic results (although obviously no scientific proof) and had resultant guilt and deep regrets. Unfortunately I think they probably cast those spells in an emotional state and did not truly consider their intentions.