MNHQ here: Parliamentary debate on authorised absence from school – an MP wants to know your views

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

Parliament's engagement team have been in touch about an upcoming debate they'd like you to contribute to: I'll let them take it from here

“Would you request authorised absence from school during term time for your child? Under what circumstances? If you have requested an absence, was it granted?"

"Steve Double MP is holding a debate on authorised absence from school on Wednesday 5 June and he wants to hear about your experiences and opinions on the topic."

"For a bit of context: in April 2017, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled against Jon Platt, a father who refused to pay a fine for taking his daughter out of school for a holiday during term-time. The judgement strengthened the controversial penalty notice system in England, under which parents may be fined for taking their child out of school without authorisation."

"Critics of the system highlight the high cost of holidays outside term-time, and the impact on tourism in the UK. The Government has maintained that ensuring school attendance is key to raising children’s attainment."

"Please reply with your views by Friday 31 May for them to be fed back to Steve Double before his debate. Alternatively, leave a comment on our Facebook page here”

Thanks
MNHQ

[Dogsaresomucheasier]

While taking a holiday in term time is frivolous, head teachers really need some discretion to give leave of absence. I have needed to ask on 3 occasions; 2 x grandparent funerals and to have the support of non-local family when end-of- pregnancy/delivery of dc3 went tits up.

[herculepoirot2]

Needs to be at the HT’s discretion but with some guidelines to protect the HT from endless argument with parents.

[Singlebutmarried]

We requested for a holiday, wasn’t authorised, but expected as much.

We wanted to do a long holiday, it was the only time that fitted in with work, due to contracts/other people’s holidays.

Saying that, we still got an attendant letter before the holiday due to absence that had been authorised, Ian the attendance was above national guidelines, but the school has set its own level higher.

Rather than focus on school absence and attendance, which is not a fixed point (you can’t predict illness, bereavement et “c) perhaps the action should be against the holiday companies who raise the prices so much in the school holidays. Fix that and I think you’ll find attendance improves.

[JellySlice]

Blanket bans on school absences are a very blunt tool. In general I would agree that absences should be reduced as much as possible. But headteachers should be allowed more discretion in deciding whether to grant leave, and the pupil's attendance record should be taken into account. In secondary school, the pupil's attitude to learning should also be taken into account - is this a pupil who can be relied upon to put the personal effort into catching up on missed work?

The school should not have the right to decide whose funeral merits an absence. I have heard a child be refused leave to attend the funeral of a family friend, for example. Similarly, the school should not have the right to decide that a child may not attend a family member's wedding.

Taking a two-week holiday during term-time should be banned. Too much work to catch up. One week holidays during term time should not generally be permitted unless the child's parents work in an industry where holiday-time holidays are impossible, such as tourism. This might also mean that a child could not attend a relative's destination wedding.

[herculepoirot2]

The school should not have the right to decide whose funeral merits an absence. I have heard a child be refused leave to attend the funeral of a family friend, for example. Similarly, the school should not have the right to decide that a child may not attend a family member's wedding.

That wouldn’t work practically. Everyone would just say every absence was due to a funeral. It needs to be at the HT’s genuine discretion, or the current system. They’re the only feasible options in my view.

[RubaiyatOfAnyone]

The thing is, this discriminates against poor families - everyone i know who's relatively well off has just shrugged and add the fine cost onto the cost of the holiday when planning it. If you are poor you don't have that option.

However, I am in the school of thought that says that a safari trip or travelling through Paris or climbing up Snowdon is of far greater educational value for a growing brain than one missed week of verbs and algebra, so I object to the whole idea on principle. I believe the blanket ban doesn't exist in Scotland, where it remains at the school's discretion, and i don't remember any of my Scottish colleagues seemingly wildly deficient in their education.

[herculepoirot2]

I am in the school of thought that says that a safari trip or travelling through Paris or climbing up Snowdon is of far greater educational value for a growing brain than one missed week of verbs and algebra, so I object to the whole idea on principle.

As lovely as that idea is, we all know that most people opt for a week in the south of France, don’t they? HTs can’t be out in a position where they have to interrogate and then judge the educational value of hypothetical holidays. Not only is that very much going to advantage richer families and the middle classes, it’s time-consuming and impractical.

[longwayoff]

Children should have 5 'free' days a year. There parents accrue holiday entitlement and so should school children. We are not yet prisoners of the state.

[Gintonic]

I completely disagree with the current policy, because as a point of principle I believe it should be up to parents to decide.

I simply don't believe the government's argument that a single day off leads to worse educational outcomes.

It should not be for a school to decide whether a child attends a family wedding, funeral etc.

I have family living abroad and will soon by requesting permission to attend a family wedding. In the future I will probably take my DC out for a longer time to visit family living on the other side of the world. I would try and coincide this with Easter holidays but I am likely to need to take some termtime leave too to make the trip worthwhile.

If school blocks this they are preventing my DC having a relationship with their cousins and grandparents, how is that in their interests?

The existing policy discriminates hugely against families with close relatives overseas.

I would also like to point out that the existing policy is ridiculous because my school quite happily closes for snow, elections and shuts early at the end of term to give teachers a rest, and noone seems to mind the loss of education in those circumstances.

[OnePotMeal]

I think authorised absence should be given if any broad educational benefit can be demonstrated. I've asked for, and received, authorised absence for attendance at music courses, performances that were unavoidably during the school day, replication of a school trip that was missed through illness and was formative for later study, and exams in extracurricular activities.

I haven't ever asked for it for holidays, but I think it should be allowed briefly for anything that demonstrably would be enriching. So personally I would say a brief trip to a cultural destination would be more justifiable than 2 weeks at Disneyland. But I also think there should be exceptions where the circumstances indicate. So take 2 weeks to go to Disneyworld by all means, if it's the last holiday a child is going to get with a terminally ill relative, for example, or before a parent in the armed forces goes away.

And I absolutely agree with the previous poster who mentioned funerals, even for non first-degree relatives, or pets for that matter. Children aren't just rote-learning automatons, but mature in important ways through learning how to cope with difficult experiences. 'Coping' doesn't mean just carrying on as though nothing's happened.

In general, I would err on the side of leniency in interpreting the rules, but I think perhaps there should be a limit in terms of number of days, as most schools have families that routinely take the piss. If you've already used up your days with overrunning holidays, you should expect to be asked to prove it when you now say a funeral is taking place at the other end of the country. And I would raise the bar as children get older, as a 16-year-old taking a random week off has more serious educational impact than a 6-year-old, in my opinion.

I don't think fines are appropriate, as parents who can afford it just pay them without batting an eyelid, and families who can't are then even more disadvantaged in comparison by always having to book peak-time holidays.

I think that parents who don't consider education important undermine their children in more ways than just taking them out of school willy nilly, and children who are well supported across the board won't suffer from missing a bit of time. The much-touted correlation between attendance and attainment is clearly much, much more nuanced than just a matter of ensuring attendance come what may, and solutions would be better focused on wider indices of social deprivation, in my opinion.

[GreasedPiglet]

My parents wouldn't have considered taking us out of school when we were young for a holiday (but would for a funeral etc.). I don't really agree with parents doing it now - I know it's cheaper, but that's just supply and demand. And I can imagine that it makes thing difficult for the teacher with children missing a week here and there.

I don't agree with school's narrow focus on attendance though, effectively penalising children for having the bad luck to be ill.

[TidyDancer]

"Children should have 5 'free' days a year. There parents accrue holiday entitlement and so should school children. We are not yet prisoners of the state."

That's what we have school holidays for.

I don't think there's a perfect solution here but there has to be something in place to deter non-essential absence.

[TeenTimesTwo]

I think holidays should be allowed, but not 2 weeks per year.
More like 1 week every other year.
And not permitted in September or May, and not KS4 at all.

That way less well off families can still take advantage of cheap alternatives, but not people just taking 2 weeks every year because they can.

Any system which encourages parent to lie to school regarding reason for absence is flawed.

I don't think you can judge 'educational' when it comes to permission for holidays. It has to be allowed, or not. Just going abroad at all is educational for someone who has never been. Going on a train is a big step for some.

[MsMarvellous]

We requested for holiday and was obviously unauthorised. It was a family holiday to Lapland for a week to see Santa. School broke up Friday 21 Dec and we had holidays going well
Into Jan instead. It made no sense to see Santa after Christmas and not did I want to be away from family Christmas week.

I also worry for those children with long term health issues. These obligatory letters that have to be sent on absence do nothing to help families at a difficult time. Perhaps allowing head teachers some space to do their jobs instead of trying to enforce a "one size fits all" set of rules would be better.

I would like schools to have more flexibility. Perhaps not in my situation, but perhaps with others who have even more reason not to be there. But I'd like schools to be better funded too and that seems to be a problem.

Most parents I know have lost faith in current government to properly look after children.

[SunniDay]

I think every child should be allowed two weeks out of school authorised for a holiday. (Ten school days).
The fact that on a sports day we are allowed to take the children home straight after afternoon registration /school is allowed to take kids on camp (but not parents). Schools say they are concerned about the "missed learning" but it is actually the pressure of attendance stats.

[herculepoirot2]

If I was a HT and told I was allowed to use my discretion, the main thing I would take account of would be existing attendance: I would be reluctant to authorise more absence for a child with less than 95%. After that, children of people in the Armed Forces and emergency services would be given a bit more flexibility, and children with EHCPs where appropriate. Funerals and weddings for close family members, yes, but a day only for weddings. I’d say no to an overseas wedding if the child had low attendance.

The problem with all of the above is that it would make me a huge target for constant argument. The current system is unfair, but it saves HTs from spending all their time on this issue.

[Alwaystimeforcakeandtea]

My council fine after 10 days of unauthorised absence so that allows for a 2 week holiday with no fine. Parents should just accept the unauthorised mark if they want a term time holiday. No real issue with that! I don’t think absence for a family holiday should be authorised but I don’t think there should be a fine for 10 days or fewer.

[meditrina]

"head teachers really need some discretion to give leave of absence"

According to,the law, they already have that. Any head who says they don't is misrepresenting facts. It is their choice whether to exercise their legal freedom (which overrides LEA/academy policy). Heads and their union are generally supportive of the policy exactly as it stands.

I do not think that the feeling of entitlement to cheap holidays is going to last long, as the realities of climate change emerge ever more clearly.

But I strongly disagree with the idea that term time holidays shouid be allowed for families where all DC are healthy and therefore have high attendance. Or where all are clever and have high attainment.

[meditrina]

BTW getting time off authorised as 'educational' means that the school has to satisfy itself that

• the nature of the educational activities is appropriate
  
• the organisation has adequate safeguarding policies, and meets all required legal and insurance requirements
  
• a register is taken
  

So things like ABRSM exams are easily covered.

Sports/performances wouid normally not come under thus category, but the standards are similar.

Family activities (whatever their merits) just don't count for these registration categories

[TheFairyCaravan]

I completely disagree with the fines. We did take our children out of school for holidays because my husband is in the armed forces therefore it wasn't always possible to go away in the holidays.

DS2 was given an unauthorised absence once when he had an afternoon off because DH was going on deployment that day. The HT refused to authorise it despite it being sports afternoon and DS2 being signed off sports by the hospital due to a serious injury he'd received at school. We couldn't move the date or time of DH's deployment but there was zero flexibility.

All families have different challenges and it's great if you can fit your holidays into the school holidays but many can't so there's needs to be more compassion, understanding and flexibility.

[ChardonnaysPrettySister]

Please keep the current policy.

Now my children are older and out of school I really enjoy traveling without too many children around. It’s s quieter without big families traveling.

[mpsw]

You shouid have got the AFF (or equivalent) or SAAFA to help you challenge that fine.

There's specific guidance in the military covenant about that, and though it stops short of utterly compelling HT's to authorise, it sets a very clear message that they shouid.

A head teacher not following the policy is not a reason to change the policy n terms Forces families. And even if the moment has passed for you, TheFairyCaravan tell relevant welfare organisations, to help them keep tabs on where the Military Covenant isn't working in practice.

[tigwig76]

I think that schools should be able to authorise 1 week's leave. I strongly believe that having a week off does not effect a child learning and their outcomes in the future providing they usually attend regularly. It should be a parents choice.

[Panda25]

Whatever system is in place it should be uniform across the country. Yes heads have the discretion but some are more discretionary than others!
My daughter was representing the region in a gymnastics competition and needed a day out. It was authorised but a letter sent out saying how bad it was to take your child out of school. She did win and at an event the HT boasted about one of their girls being a regional champion. I also have to request to take my other daughter out for RAD ballet exams. The HT has always been at great pains to say how bad it is to take the children out of school for holidays ( I do agree with this as not only do they miss out on some things but also the social aspect of school life) and that if parents insist on doing this no help will be given to the child to make up for what she has missed. However it was deemed appropriate that the girls should be given a half day off to allow the teachers to be rewarded for all their hard work and amazing results last year by being entertained by the Governors to a barbecue! That to me, although only a half day is very hypocritical, and does not send out the right message.

[herculepoirot2]

Panda25

But then you end up with a system with no discretion. You can either have uniformity or flexibility, but not both.