MNHQ here: Parliamentary debate on authorised absence from school – an MP wants to know your views

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

Parliament's engagement team have been in touch about an upcoming debate they'd like you to contribute to: I'll let them take it from here

“Would you request authorised absence from school during term time for your child? Under what circumstances? If you have requested an absence, was it granted?"

"Steve Double MP is holding a debate on authorised absence from school on Wednesday 5 June and he wants to hear about your experiences and opinions on the topic."

"For a bit of context: in April 2017, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled against Jon Platt, a father who refused to pay a fine for taking his daughter out of school for a holiday during term-time. The judgement strengthened the controversial penalty notice system in England, under which parents may be fined for taking their child out of school without authorisation."

"Critics of the system highlight the high cost of holidays outside term-time, and the impact on tourism in the UK. The Government has maintained that ensuring school attendance is key to raising children’s attainment."

"Please reply with your views by Friday 31 May for them to be fed back to Steve Double before his debate. Alternatively, leave a comment on our Facebook page here”

Thanks
MNHQ

However, because my children are conventionally educated at school, we are penalised. How is that fair?

It’s fair because home educators aren’t using a service. They are opting out of one. You use it, and yes, there are some conditions attached to that.

It makes me absolutely furious that there is a complete ban on taking kids out of school. As a family of 6 we absolutely cannot afford to go on holiday during school holidays, me and DP both work stressful full time jobs and bloody well deserve a weeks holiday once a year! Despite the fact my children have excellent attendance holiday requests are refused every year. I now call them in sick for the week we are away as I have no choice if we want to go away the school know we are on holiday but can't prove otherwise (or at least can't be bothered to prove otherwise)

Primary education in particular has become more stressful for children in the past few years due to national curriculum and SATS. Children often suffer from stress and mental health problems as a result and as it is difficult to get these diagnosed parents are left to manage these problems as best they can . Allowing children time off school is a way parents manage mental health issues in children caused by school. But absences due to mental health issues will be classed as unauthorized. So these fines and attendance officers are causing additional stress for parents of stressed children.

Would you request authorised absence from school during term time for your child? Under what circumstances? If you have requested an absence, was it granted?

I’ve requested for Grandparents funerals and grandparents memorials. I’ve also requested one day for a prize long weekend (wasn’t authorised - as expected - but we took it anyway as a one off).

I would expect to be allowed it for very close family weddings (ie pupil’s parents or sibling) or due to close family very serious illness (hospitalised, eol) or newborn sibling.

I also expect all health appointments to be authorised.

But I do not expect any holiday time authorised and think that it is disruptive to all the class pupils. Also unfair as many children can’t even get a school place.

As an exception I do think that children of those serving overseas in the armed forces should be allowed a week’s holiday in term time if necessary.

In my experience of my DC's primary school, virtually no work was done during the last 4 weeks of term, so I wouldn't worry about taking them out towards the end of summer term.
I wouldn't do it during high school, particularly when they need to revise for exams.

My daughter was granted 3 days authorised absence to visit her grandmother before she died of cancer (she lived abroad so a few days were needed). Sadly the Head then decided that she wouldn't be granted the 1 day she needed for the funeral and this would be unauthorised. Although we could understand the Head had been vaguely generous in granting the initial 3 days, it just added to the stress at a horrible time. Annoyingly my daughter was in Reception then and so wasn't even legally required to attend school (although I believe the school place could have been withdrawn as a result of unauthorised absences, and this worried us greatly at the time).

I should add that the following year, the same Head did allow DD a day off for her uncle's wedding at which she was a bridesmaid. The unauthorised absence for MIL funeral still upsets me though!

I have never requested absence for either DC, because I’ve not had the need, but I do understand the need for some families, military for example.

What doesn’t seem fair at all, is that DC’s private school have no problem at all with term time holidays, we’ve had children disappear to China and also Australia for 4-6 weeks at a time and nobody bats an eyelid. Ski trips the week either side of Feb half term are common. That seems incredibly unfair.

My daughter isn't in school yet, she's too young, but I think the current system is insane. It basically encourages deception because in reality every parent I know who wants to take their kid out of school for something will fake their child's illness and get their kid to lie along with it. The system isn't fit for purpose from what I can see.

There should be a minimum cut off for attendance, if it falls below a certain threshold then the school should investigate what's happening, otherwise it should be at the parent's discretion whether to remove their child from school. They should have a constructive dialogue with the teacher and come to a mutual decision on a case by case basis. This nonsense with fines should be scrapped (only a deterrent for poor families anyway) and it seems that there is no consistency at the best of times with it being luck of the draw whether you get a head teacher on a power trip.

In brief, minimum attendance threshold below which an investigation is launched, otherwise leave absences to parents discretion.

The current system is absolutely draconian and penalises the less well off

The fact that children do better when they have higher attendance correlates with more factors than attendance alone, eg family culture, work ethic, educational background, enthusiasm for learning etc. and can't be boiled down to simple numbers of days spent in school.

I think this "allowed to go to a funeral" business sounds really odd. Of course you can take your child out of school to go to a funeral. School may/may not authorise it but it doesn't stop you going if you want to and taking your dc. Surely you choose what's right for the situation?

Where we live there's a fine for a full week or so I'm told but not for absence of less than a week.

I've taken ds6 out of school several times - once to do the winter wonderland at Center Parcs (fri&mon) - not authorised, no fine but a fab time was had by all, half a day after last year's summer holiday and 1.5 days this year (all unauthorised).

We did get an approved early finish once in reception to go & see David Attenborough opening an exhibition at a museum tho!

I think it's utter nonsense filling in the "bad parent form" which the head has to read & comment on then send back to me. I know she won't approve it. She knows she can't approve it even if she wants to. That's 5 minutes less to spend on something worthwhile for her and for me plus all that paper & all those envelopes... the playground was half empty the last day before half term... how much wasted time is that??!!

edwinbear - the parents are paying and then voluntarily choose to miss some of what they've paid for - not helpful to the DC, their teachers or the school but I'm not sure it's the same position as a state school where taxpayers' money is being spent on a child who's not there.

Generally, however, I think the current system is ok as long as parents can challenge fines. At secondary, 'only' 5% absence is half a day every other week, so that's a double lesson in 3 subjects, say (at A-,level) but if you add it to some sickness absence the student has soon missed some important chunks of the syllabus. It is certainly more effective to set a hard line on attendance and expect parents to make the case for it to be waived. If you relax on it, you can quite quickly get problems.

I do quite like the idea of parents being given 5 days they could use, with strong encouragement not to use them and/or higher fines for the second week. That would help families with relatives abroad, cover weddings and funerals and a week's holiday for armed forces families etc.

I like the idea of kids getting a week off to be taken whenever.

You could at the same time extend the school year by a week to compensate and begin to deal with the ridiculous 6 week holidays that have no relevance to modern UK living.

Break the strangle hold of holiday companies by killing the 6 week holidays and making half terms more random across regions.

I have requested absence for medical appointments
I find it ridiculous that I am required to provide evidence of the appointments

For term time holidays I would simply call in sick

Take as many holidays as you like but don’t hold me accountable as to why your child has made no progress.

We have had a few short holidays authorised for ds. His combination of disabilities means that our holiday options are limited because everywhere that is physically accessible enough is too busy in school holidays.

@HolyBerry so an otherwise 100% attendance,average child (not even top set) will make no progress because of a week or two away out of 36?

I would also like to see local authorities fined for not providing school places. It does seem like double standards when the LA is fining a parent for 5 days holiday but is not providing education to dozens of children with send for months if not years at a time and getting away with it.

M3Lon has it, I think. That would help a lot of people and if national, would help Heads. Although the week extension would not happen quickly, if at all, due to teachers' contracts and the enormous cost when multiplied by all the schools.

People saying 'but it won't affect a child with high attendance' are missing the point. Making it too easy to get term time out would soon mean half the class was missing at random points and that absolutely would affect achievement.

I am a HT. I think the system is ok ish at the moment. I use my discretion and I don’t fine. I always authorise sports competitions, music and ballet exams, family funerals and weddings, and visits to see grandparents abroad or child’s country of origin, as long as it’s not excessive.

My problem is not the system, it’s Ofsted and it’s insistence on 96% plus for the school.

IMHO the most educationally damaging non attendance is frequent, random days off: children who have a day off each week, not even the same day each time.

Personal bugbear: parents who want work set and marked for when they are away...it’s our teaching you are missing! Go to WHSmiths and get a published workbook for your child’s year group. Do it with them, and mark it yourself.

I feel there are so many variables that this shouldn't be centrally controlled and discretion should be on a pupil by pupil basis. However, schools should have a clear published absence policy covering everything from common colds to more serious illnesses, exclusion for sickness I.e. 24/48hrs from last vomiting event, family holidays, funerals, religious days etc. Attendance levels could be a factor of this policy.

What I'd like is consistency in approach within a school - a published policy would provide this.

Then it becomes both a parent choice when signing up to a school and schools decision on what works for a particular pupil.

I've taken all three of my DC out of school at different times for very different reasons.

DS1 is autistic. Sometimes he hits his emotional limit of coping. He does the odd full term zero time off then has the odd phase where 50% is an achievement. I work with school on establishing what's best at any time. I don't just pull him out. I chat with his teachers and we make a plan. He has an EHCP and very high IQ, is well in control of his studies on track for decent GCSE results.

DS2 was terribly bullied at primary (transferred into during KS2 When friendship groups were established). School did work with us to help but sometimes you get a class with a very difficult dynamic. He did one school residential trip that he endured, but hated, so opted out of a very expensive whole class trip for a week to a European holiday destination. If he'd stayed in school he'd have been sat in with the year below for a week. It wouldn't have been good for his morale. I chatted to the head and informally withdrew DS2 for the week. We went to an art gallery, a couple of museums, the zoo, cooked and talked about life together and had a great positive week. With additional needs syblings it was fantastic for DS2 to have my undivided attention. His little head was off his chest going back in after the weeks break and it made the final weeks of year 6 far more positive. No one lost out from this withdrawl from school, he definitely benefited, but it couldnt be legislated for. It was a unique set of circumstances with a unique solution.

My youngest has what's currently diagnosed as social communication disorder. She is very hardworking. She's just into KS2. She concentrates so intently and gets frustrated that not everyone is from the same mould. In a long term, by the end she just falls apart into a crying uncontrollably, very upset, very over tired little girl. I feel I can make the call to keep her home. I guess its recorded as sickness but I feel its my call to withdraw her when she's no longer able to cope.

@Ripple Agreed. We do bespoke plans for children with extra needs who have a flexi timetable for fatigue or sensory overload. That isn’t classed as absence.

I think the current system offers some limited discretion to HTs and puts the responsibility on parents. I would have some concerns that increasing HT discretion could make their job difficult.

Parenting comes with responsibilities as well as rights. I say this as someone who chose to take my year-4 child out of school for an afternoon to travel to a family event, meaning she missed one session of education.

The HeadTeacher was understandably unable to authorise the absence, but DH and I chose to go ahead. Our rationale was as folllows.

minimal impact on DD’s education
not in year 6
has otherwise excellent attendance
It was the last education session of term.

unlikely to receive a fine
Our county fines for missing >10 sessions

My point is that because the HT was unable to authorise we took responsibility for the absence. And I believe this is correct. It isour responsibility.

My preferred solution would be to continue to ban out of term holiday and to increase the potential fines levied for parents with higher incomes, especially where there have been prolonged or repeat absences, but i’d allow the LA who issue fines to look at factors in mitigation, such as good attendance, family abroad.

I think it's reasonable to refuse holiday requests during secondary school, where learning is quite formal, but completely unnecessary in most of primary school where they're all leaning at different paces anyway.

I would like schools to recognise that working parents annual leave isn't necessarily dictated by the school calendar. For example, DH isn't allowed any annual leave in December because it's peak period in the logistics and retail trades.
Schools need to remember that ultimately the child is MY child and not theirs.