MNHQ here: Parliamentary debate on authorised absence from school – an MP wants to know your views

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

Parliament's engagement team have been in touch about an upcoming debate they'd like you to contribute to: I'll let them take it from here

“Would you request authorised absence from school during term time for your child? Under what circumstances? If you have requested an absence, was it granted?"

"Steve Double MP is holding a debate on authorised absence from school on Wednesday 5 June and he wants to hear about your experiences and opinions on the topic."

"For a bit of context: in April 2017, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled against Jon Platt, a father who refused to pay a fine for taking his daughter out of school for a holiday during term-time. The judgement strengthened the controversial penalty notice system in England, under which parents may be fined for taking their child out of school without authorisation."

"Critics of the system highlight the high cost of holidays outside term-time, and the impact on tourism in the UK. The Government has maintained that ensuring school attendance is key to raising children’s attainment."

"Please reply with your views by Friday 31 May for them to be fed back to Steve Double before his debate. Alternatively, leave a comment on our Facebook page here”

Thanks
MNHQ

Schools that are having to cut numbers of TAs to try to make their budgets balance are hardly going to have the money to spend on new tech to facilitate term time absences (even though it would be a very good think for those with long-term illnesses)

I noticed the comment above, about someone resenting those who just paid and took the holiday anyhow. Thinking, no-one can be that young, fines are recent! But thye've been around since 2007.

In Switzerland they have a thing called Joker days where over each 3 year period of education you're allowed to take I think 3days extra holiday (so you could use 1 a year or 3 in one year) Any other time will result in a large fine. This seems to work well.

To answer the original question.
We have asked for authorised absence on a number of occasions.

The time it was refused: My daughter's primary school finished slightly later in the year that year in July, not until the Tuesday lunchtime. Because it was late in the year, other schools had finished, there was a local music summer (day) camp running that week (the only week of the summer holidays) that she and we wanted her to go to (she had been for the previous three years) . So we asked for leave of absence for that final Monday and half of Tuesday so she could go to the music camp. There was no point her going if she missed the Monday and most of Tuesday as they would be learning and rehearsing the music for a concert on the Friday. Leave was refused on the grounds that music lessons or camp was not "exceptional circumstances" and so she missed the music camp, and spent Monday and the first half of Tuesday doing very little at school (as you tend to on the last couple of days of the primary school year, when everybody is demob happy– she had one maths test, and watched a video, and did some general tidying), instead of a week of music camp, having the educational experience of playing her violin in an orchestra. I as her parent believe that the educational experience she would have had at music camp far outweighed the day and a half of messing around on the last days of the school year at school, and do not believe that a head, who clearly valued his attendance scores for Ofsted rather than music or the educational experience of his pupils, should be making this decision.

The times it has been granted: I have a highly disabled child with a life limiting condition. Because of the nature of his condition, the only time we were ever are able to go away with him was on a yearly retreat run by a charity, who take children like this and their parents and other siblings (and doctors and nurses and hoisting equipment etc. etc.) away to a hotel outside London. The charity only runs these retreats during term time (presumably because they cannot afford school holiday prices, and the hotels are likely to be booked up). To go on such a retreat, we therefore needed to ask for leave of absence from school for our other, normal, children for the two school days involved. Both primary and high schools agreed that such a retreat amounted to “exceptional circumstances”, and have allowed us to go. In fact, one year, the retreat fell on the week of one kid’s Year 8 exams, which meant he missed six exams, and they allowed him to make up the exams on the Thursday and Friday. While all schools have been sympathetic, because of the rules there has been no guarantee in any given year that we would able to go, and while most people would hopefully understand that the experience of meeting and bonding with siblings with similar family situations and the support and counselling offered by the charity’s retreat outweighed the two days of school my kids were missing, the criteria are sufficiently unclear and a less sympathetic school could easily have knocked us back, especially given that it is not a once off, but potentially a yearly thing. Note, in theory, my disabled child’s special school could also have refused him permission to go, although as they are used to kids being sick all the time, in practice they don’t have the same kinds of expectations for schooling (my child has a deteriorating condition, so he can in fact do less on finishing school than he could on starting it), so we were fairly confident of being given permission from his school.

Just to be clear, even with two days off for a retreat, my kids always had more than 95% attendance, and my daughter would have had even if she had missed the day and a half that year in primary school to go to the music camp

You should've still taken her out. The vast majority of school won't fine for 4 sessions. Just because it's unauthorised doesn't mean it will automatically be fined.

Attendance is calculated on the days in school so far in that year. Accordingly, because it's in September, that 1 day off will drop DD's attendance well below the magic 95%, and so is causing massive issues.
This is a big part of the whole problem because of how the absence is calculated. The same amount of time off in May, doesn't flag up the same response as that time off in September. It's a lazy and biased way to calculate absence. Schools and LAs also need to realise how the NHS works. That clinics for things like fractures, illnesses, injuries etc are at set times and generally full to bursting point, and you don't get to choose the appointment. You don't really get that at a GP surgery now either, because of cuts. If your child has an issue that needs to be treated, you're made to feel like a bad parent for taking them out of school. I've received the letter threatening fines for further absence despite having provided the evidence they wanted. Because of the time of year that the appointments needed to be, it dropped attendance below the 97% required by the school. This was a one off thing for us, an injury that once put right was sorted, but I can only imagine the frustration of having a child with a long term illness that needs treatment and being threatened with court and fines for doing the best for your child's health. No parents in those circumstances should even receive that letter, never mind phone calls and meetings regarding attendance when appointment letters etc are provided.

As for holidays, I'm torn. In one respect I have great difficulty getting time off during school holidays, by definition in hospitality, school holidays are our busiest time and annual leave is restricted, and no annual leave at all in August, December or the first week of January. I also cannot afford to pay the inflated school holidays prices, so for the last 4 years, we've not had a holiday apart from a night or two fairly locally during my days off. Basically the times I can go DD can't and vice versa. I'm a bit 🤷 about it because she's coming up to the last year of secondary now and the school have failed all the pupils quite badly (different story!) That it wouldn't have been appropriate to take her away from little teaching there was. I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think the current system works at all.

Would we, as a society, treat adults this way? Expect 100% attendance at work, punish those who wanted a life outside work too? Of course not, we are given 20+ annual leave days and can use them as we see fit. We are also allowed time off for sickness and appointments but children with disabilities miss out on their attendance awards before even starting school because they must go to appointments. Children should be given a set amount of days to take as they and their parent sees fit and if that includes duvet days or holidays then so be it. Children are people too and they need downtime and that doesn't always happen to fit within the prescribed school holidays

They get 13 weeks of downtime. That seems pretty generous to me, 1/4 of the entire year. As long as homework isn't set in the holidays - that needs to be stopped in my opinion (except for revision for GCSEs and A levels). By all means stop kids going on holiday in term-time except in exceptional circumstances, but you can't have it both ways - holiday means holiday.

I think the school needs to be able to exercise some discretion with granting authorised attendance. Not all absence from school has to be negative. At primary school there can be a huge advantage for a child spending quality time with family members - particularly if they are attending an overseas wedding seeing relatives they don't regularly see. (I use that example as a number of children at my DDs school have been absent for this reason and often this isn't timed to take place in UK holiday weeks). I think general attendance should be taken into account when granting requests, along with the reason why attendance is being requested.
More importantly the culture of stressing huge importance on attendance should be altered. Schools seem terrified of Offsted criticising their attendance records and this is feeding through to the children. It really seems to be impressed upon the children that the school gets into trouble if the children don't go. My DD didn't want to take time off school even when the GP advised a few days off for a severe chest infection to allow the antibiotics to kick in. She was literally sobbing that she wouldn't get an end year certificate for full attendance and that her class teacher would be in trouble. She is 6. The GP said that sadly this wasn't the first time a child had reacted that way in front of her.

Up to one week per year could be allowed for primary school children who otherwise have a good attendance record. This could be a clear rule- but not blunt. I don't think heads should have discretion- I doubt they'd want it. It would just lead to constant arguments with parents. Heads have got more important things to do with their time and skills - like managing the education of those children who ARE attending school.Not for secondary school though.
I don't really agree with taking holidays in term time but this would be a compromise which takes into account the different situations of different families. I'm against it because it has knock on effects on all the other children in the class of someone always missing.

It's academic for me anyway- as a widow with 2 young children, I can't afford any holiday in or out of term time- and our family is not devastated by not having a holiday together. It's not a human right to have a family holiday.

You can still bond as a family and enjoy time together without spending thousands on a "holiday". We spend evenings, weekends and annual leave time together but just don't go anywhere fancy.

But I do recognise that there are parents whose employment situation makes term time impossible- and one week's term time holiday helps with that. If that's not good enough, then consider changing employment if family holidays are SO important.

If a child has a parent in prison they are allowed 1 day per fortnight off school as an authorised absence to visit that parent. All prison Family days are run during school time. Many prisons only have toys available at weekday visits.

If it is really that damaging to a child to miss so much school then why do they allow some of the most disadvantaged children in our society to miss so much school - further disadvantaging them.

The Government has total control over the prison system and could ensure that visits are arranged differently to enable children to visit parents without missing school but they do not.

If it really is that damaging than the government are actively and deliberately disadvantaging a group of children. 200 000 children have a parent sent to prison each year - this is not an insignificant number of children.

If missing 15-20 odd days per year is not significant enough to warrant spending a bit more money on reorganising prison visiting regimes then I do not see how a weeks holiday could possibly be that damaging.

The government cannot have it both ways - if it is so damaging then they need to lead by example and get their own house in order. If 200 000 children can miss significant amounts of school then why is this even an issue.

My personal opinion is that missing a week off school does no harm but the hypocrisy of the government in this is awful.

Basecamp

Because the alternative is not seeing a parent, rather than not getting a tan?

Herculepoirot2 - I think you miss the point.

The government could ensure prisons enabled children to visit parents without missing school if missing school is really that damaging. It really would not be hard.

If missing school is that damaging then they are being catastrophically negligent in allowing prisons to run their visiting regimes this way.

Maybe - just maybe - they do not think it is that damaging when it come to them having to spend the extra money to prevent it.

Its the double standards I am highlighting.

By all means suggest that. There is no doubt at all in my mind that missing a day of school a fortnight is detrimental.

The biggest problem with the current system is that many children have a non-British parent these days and hence half of their family are overseas. If their parents can’t afford the inflated school holiday prices then they just won’t get to see their family for their entire schooling and they won’t get to learn about the culture, languages and tradition of their family first hand which is very sad.

I’ve only been allowed to take them out for docs appts etc. Haven’t

We requested a week (5 days off) for my children to take their first and only holiday. Both of my children have special needs/disabilities, but one was in mainstream (YR) and one in a special school (Y3).

Going during term breaks was not possible as any holiday places we could afford were massively crowded during that time, so my dcs wouldn't be able to cope or participate in any way. We needed a quieter time. I explained this very clearly to both schools in the request.

The mainstream school approved it, indicating that they understood the need to take the holiday during the school period due to their SNs. The specialised school refused it.

We went anyway. There was no fine from the specialised school, but it was just a stressful situation that they made a fuss over us going anyway.

Quite frankly, I am appalled that the government moans about a child missing even one day of education when there are children with special needs that have been off rolled and excluded from school due to a lack of support that have been out of school for months waiting for provision. Add into that the number of children placed in isolation that are not participating in their classes, so they are missing out on a day of education as well. Double standards, indeed.

It seems to me that the government is quite happy to see children miss school when they do not want to spend money supporting those children.

And when a school employee tells me to send my ill child to school and let THEM decide if my child is ill enough to stay home, then I feel the school and the government has gone too far. The focus on 100% attendance is much too pressured.

Many children over the years have been out of school during term time for holidays and still did well, going on to college and university. It feels like now the government is infringing on every aspect of family life, and it's overkill IMO.

As far as policies stating that only children that have good attendance can go, I'd say that is discriminatory towards those children with SN/disabilities that perhaps have missed days here or there due to illness or hospital appointments that are beyond their control.

Either allow it or don't, but absolutely no not leave it up to HT discretion. That would just continue the inconsistency which is apparent from this thread. Part of the problem with the previous system was that many parents assumed an entitlement to ten days 'holiday' absence per year, when it always was discretionary. The new system was supposed to make it clearer and more consistent. So, imo, either all time off is authorised or only that which fits very special ific criteria. However, if all time off is authorised, parents need to understand that responsibility for their child's missed education falls on their shoulders. Teachers would not be expected to set it mark work or indeed, to spend tine helping children catch up on their return.
Teachers pay and progression could no longer be dependant on the progress of their pupils, since it would be unreasonable to penalise them for the absence of their pupils. The government could no longer set attendance targets for schools and OFSTED could not use attendance falling below those targets as a reason to deny a school and outstanding grade. League tables would need to be redesigned to take into account absence levels.
I agree with those upthread who suggested that parents should have to sign a disclaimer to say they understand the potential impact of their choices on their child's educational successes, including exam grades.

Personally I'm with the critics, the main reason for term time absence (of more than 1 day) is for family holidays, because it's so expensive during school holidays. It seems that targeting parents about attendance was the easier option, but the most effective way to stop term time holidays woul be to crack down on the tourism industry to even out their pricing structure and make family holidays more affordable to families in the designated holidays. It's disgusting that the industry has been allowed to take advantage in this way for so long.

I think we need to go back to being allowed 10 days. I don't want to take my dc on holiday when it's absolutely rammed. Its no fun and not a relaxing holiday.
The fine on top on the holiday it's still cheaper to take them out of school.
The education system is in shambles but they're worried about someone taking their dc to Spain for a week

I agree with those upthread who suggested that parents should have to sign a disclaimer to say they understand the potential impact of their choices on their child's educational successes, including exam grades.

Funny how few on this thread have said they think that’s fair.

Our school authorises up to 10 days’ holiday a year.

I would and have requested it.

The education system in the UK lags behind that of Scandinavian countries. There is very limited scope for child led learning and little priority given to children’s emotional and psychological well-being.

I want my children to have unstructured time, quality time with family, the opportunity to play and explore. That is when learning is consolidated. Yes, they can have that in school holidays but child development and educational success requires more. I can also provide them with opportunities that I’m not able to provide financially due to inflated prices in term time.

Funny how few on this thread have said they think that’s fair.

I wouldn't have an issue with that at all.

YourSarcasmIsDripping

Good. I really think it’s the fairest solution.

I would add, though, that a parent who signs such a disclaimer should also be prepared, if the non-attendance reaches a certain level, to be told their place is being given to someone else. A week or two here or there, with the parent taking it on their shoulders if the child fails = fine. Taking up a school place and being chronically absent and disengaged = not fine.

Holidays in term time are fine. As long as no parent asks for help for their child to catch up, or be provided extra work because they were absent. Because they do. A lot. And I now say no. You chose to go away while I was teaching those lessons so tough. Sorry, it annoys me far too much !

It is an extremely unfair system and it is just a way to make money out of parents. Our school used to allow 10 days if attendance was good, then changed it to 0 days, then brought in fines.

You should be allowed 5-10 days a year, even just 5 would be enough to have a holiday in term time.

They say education is important, but shut the school at the first sign of a snowflake. They happily shut the school when the teachers strike. We have to put up with this and find childcare etc.

I will be taking my child out for 5 days and I will pay a fine if I have to. Last year it would have been 4 days, but we had to cancel.

It is also ludicrous that parents are being fined and taken to court over this, when people who steal and injure others get lesser fines and sentances.