MNHQ here: Parliamentary debate on authorised absence from school – an MP wants to know your views

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

Parliament's engagement team have been in touch about an upcoming debate they'd like you to contribute to: I'll let them take it from here

“Would you request authorised absence from school during term time for your child? Under what circumstances? If you have requested an absence, was it granted?"

"Steve Double MP is holding a debate on authorised absence from school on Wednesday 5 June and he wants to hear about your experiences and opinions on the topic."

"For a bit of context: in April 2017, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled against Jon Platt, a father who refused to pay a fine for taking his daughter out of school for a holiday during term-time. The judgement strengthened the controversial penalty notice system in England, under which parents may be fined for taking their child out of school without authorisation."

"Critics of the system highlight the high cost of holidays outside term-time, and the impact on tourism in the UK. The Government has maintained that ensuring school attendance is key to raising children’s attainment."

"Please reply with your views by Friday 31 May for them to be fed back to Steve Double before his debate. Alternatively, leave a comment on our Facebook page here”

Thanks
MNHQ

Its needs to be only authorised for genuine reasons eg weddings and funerals for instance or where that family need to travel outside of the British school holidays eg visiting family in another country where term times differ, obviously where parents are in the military or other inflexible occupations it's important to have a holiday when they can get leave. It's not appropriate just to get cheaper prices - nobody needs to travel to Spain! Kids education is important and your child missing can disrupt the whole class, it's bad enough with illness

As for kids with exceptional talent, their a specific register code for "educated offsite" for such opportunities, we never had issues with DD's music things being authorised and the school was super supportive (in return they rolled her out like a performing monkey whenever they could!)

Never requested absence during termtime for holidays as dh's work revolved around term times anyway.

Authorised absences were requested many times for dance exams, auditions and performances. Always granted, but on occasion I had to put my foot down rather firmly, particularly for auditions in Y11 as DC was at elite level and attendance was essential to future career. (DC did go on to full-time professional training).

Parents should have a right to take their children out of school for a short period if THEY believe there is sufficient need. The old 10 days in a year seems reasonable.

Children should also be allowed time off for those things a reasonable employer would grant compassionate leave for...funerals etc.

But also children should be given leeway for things an adult might take annual leave for...weddings, religious festivals, that extra day you need to travel. (Though it would be fair to say this comes out of the 10 days which I proposed earlier)

Patents should be able to self-certify for minor short illnesses. (Doctors can't cope with kids trailing in for every high temperature, poorly tummy, and general feeling crapness.)

Government and schools need to remember that a parent has the right and duty to raise and educate a child. Children do not belong to the state.

I would be willing to vote for someone who wants to reintroduce reasonable term time leave of absence. It is a lot higher up my list of issues than many things MP's spend time on.

“Would you request authorised absence from school during term time for your child? Under what circumstances?“

Not for a holiday. Never. Not with 175 non school days available for holidays in a year. In our family we can cut that down to autumn half term, Christmas hols, and May half term, because I work in agricultural related industry and dh works in a school, but still enough to arrange the luxury of a holiday if we could afford it. The odd sense of entitlement that many families have about their ‘right’ to a holiday is pushing the term time absences up.

“If you have requested an absence, was it granted?"

In the last 11 years of having 3 school aged children I have requested:
1 x half day for ds1 to meet his newborn baby sister during hospital visiting hours. Authorised.
1 x full day for ds1 and ds2 to take the last day of the academic year off to attend a big family celebration several hours away, an event which recognised a landmark anniversary of the family business. Unauthorised.
1 x full day for ds1 to represent his county at a prestigious sporting event. Authorised.

Although I appreciate how important school is, so are family relationships. It is not just academic tests that contribute to who a child will become. With both parents having to work full time these days it is becoming increasingly harder to spend time as a family.

I don't think it is too much to ask that a family be allowed to spend a week or two together throughout the year and I don't think that right should be reserved for the privileged that are able to afford the thousands it costs to have a break in the school holidays.

Many of today's professionals will have taken time out of school for holidays, it was certainly common when I was coming up through school and yet they still managed good qualifications and decent jobs.

I agree reoccurring absences need to be addressed however, the government should either permit a certain amount of days holiday per year as long as overall absence is satisfactory (and I understand a complete ban for GCSE year).
Or
They need to impose restrictions on how much holiday companies are able to increase their prices during the school holidays.

...and as for refusing time off for funerals? that is awful!

I think the 10 days of old is a good measure but do appreciate the disruption this causes classes so perhaps a compromise of 5 days is more viable? In those days despite the opportunity to take absence my experience was that the majority stuck with term time hols anyway. My DC primary school is really eager to get an outstanding Ofsted but absence scoring holds them back. Blanket bans do nothing but encourage flouting the rules so a discretionary number of days solves this issue. In my experience the parents who take out their children mid term are more often than not the ones who could afford the fines/cost of peak holidays anyway. I have an issue where DC1 secondary school often has different end of term dates than DC2 and DC3. Last year for example it was a weeks difference in April. More often than not my DH cannot take more than 3 or 4 days leave during summer holidays, not because he is in military, or tourism etc but because his company simply cannot have everyone off at the same time. Holidays are not just about sunbeds and beaches, but concentrated family time, no matter where your holiday is. Trips to outer Mongolia are no more worthy or meaningful than a family trip to Magaluf (so many arguments I hear regarding about how does a child benefit from a cheap Spanish holiday) but we should all have a choice. I would love to take my children long haul but Feb/May/Oct h/t does not fit this and Easter/August/Dec are crazy money. It seems that our children are more and more controlled by someone else other than their parents. The pressure on kids now is huge and the increase in the need for mindfulness days/help with anxiety indicates that more and more regulation is not helping in my opinion. Days off does not mean we do not value education but can often mean we value our wellbeing more. Afford parents with a little common sense.

The introduction of fines seemed to me to be a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I’ve requested occasional days from two different schools for holidays (usually just one or two days tagged onto a weekend or half term), to visit other parent while he was working overseas, for music exams etc. Exams/sports events have always been authorised as “educated elsewhere”; both head teachers responded to holiday requests with a letter along the lines of “I cannot authorise this trip, but do hope you will enjoy it”.
Never been fined but DC generally had 98 or 99% attendance.
So that was two headteachers applying common sense. But to have that privilege the family also needs to be reasonable and make sure the child regularly attends school (barring illness obviously).

I can't take term time holidays so I have no bone in this fight. I still think it's daft and unfair and I'm eagerly waiting for the studies that show these fines improved attendance,progress and the education of children.
How can a system that makes parents and children to lie to teachers,their peers etc be any good?
Proper family time, whether in Spain or exploring the Louvre is important. Spending time with family in other countries is important. Having some extra time off to recover from shit situations is important.

And I don't think it's entitlement to want to have a nice one week warm weather holiday for £800 , compared to hit or miss weather in the uk ,long weekend for £650. For some people it can be term time holiday or no holiday at all,and no I don't begrudge them or their kids that.

The parents that really don't care , will still not care, skirt the limits or learn to lie better.

I think this is the wrong way round.

There should be a parliamentary discussion regarding the holiday industry with a look to banning price hikes during school holidays.

Or maybe looking at the French system of school holidays where they are staggered by area.

My parents took me out during term time for two weeks every year and yet I still gained a degree in nursing, so it didn't affect my career prospects.

My children attend school and keep being awarded 100% attendance certificates. This is as much down to luck than parenting as you usually can't help it if they are sick in childhood! The reason I mention this is to demonstrate a high attendance profile here.

Education is not just about sitting in a classroom. I think we can all agree travel broadens the mind - there's a saying for exactly that - and of course a young and questioning mind is always broadened by travel too. My children have a deep understanding of places they've travelled to, much more than they'd get from a text book in class.

This year, due to my chemotherapy and then my husband breaking his leg, we have not been able to look to a summer holiday and it would be really handy to take time out of season for this when our health allows. As much as anything else, we need this as a family after all we've been through. These kind of series of 'life events' are not considered when imposing a blanket ban with such tight constrains imposter on the headteacher as they make their decisions.

Last year we had leave granted as the airline cancelled our flights but we had accommodation booked and no way of getting there for the summer holiday dates. We had to book a week early and this was considered 'exceptional' enough to be granted. This does, however, make it harder to ask for mitigating circumstances again this year as we didn't anticipate chemotherapy and broken bones!

A head teacher up thread said she wouldn't allow a child to attend a wedding abroad if they had

I've recently had a request for an authorised absence refused by my ds's headteacher. I requested 1 day for a close family member's wedding. It was refused because his attendance was only 97%. I wonder what the head expects me to do in this situation - not attend my sister's wedding (or make DH and Ds stay at home )? Maybe I should've sent my DC in when he had D&V/tonsillitis so he would have 100% attendance? It's in the last week of school so I doubt he will miss any crucial parts of the curriculum. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Last year we had a holiday in Florida, one week in holidays/one week out. My mother and brother joined us as it was her 60th - we had to fit in with three adults work restrictions. My mums in particular being very restrictive. Ours was refused and we had to pay fines. These guidelines don't take into account increasingly tough holiday rules in the workplace, for example I worked in retail and had 6 weeks over Christmas and new years where a holiday ban was in force.

Also I have family in Cornwall, visiting us a nightmare as we (a) cannot afford to stay in the holidays (b) virtually all accommodation has minimum stays during school holidays.

I don't think the current rules (in E&W) need to change - as others have said, headteachers need to comply with them properly. They do have discretion, they just pretend that they don't.

Funerals and weddings should be a given and it needs to be more than a day - not everyone lives locally to family and they may need to travel.

Discretion should be used where someone is eg in the Forces or on shift work and can only get leave at certain times.

But just because someone wants to save £££, no. There are 13 weeks' holiday in the year and most people can go on holiday during those 13 weeks.

TheCunkOfPhilomena

Our Parliament can’t legislate on what people can charge in Spain, can it?

There should be a parliamentary discussion regarding the holiday industry with a look to banning price hikes during school holidays

Prices are reduced out of season, not increased during the season.

No I don't believe that either. And I know it's not true because a few years ago February half term wasn't a uniform week and guess what, the prices were high in the week the tour operators had thought would be half term and low in the other week. Funny that.

Or maybe looking at the French system of school holidays where they are staggered by area.

This is also the case in Germany. However, it causes mayhem if you live in a border area, either because you have kids in more than one school straddling the border, or you work in one area and your kids go to school in the other. Or both! But the French and Germans make it work.

Unfortunately we aren’t able to take holiday during school holidays due to my husbands work. We aren’t a family who views holidays as a must do every year, however when we do go abroad , it has to be during term time. It’s got nothing to do with cost, we simply cannot go during the school holidays.

I feel the rules also shouldn’t kick in until children are in key stage 2 .

*A head teacher up thread said she wouldn't allow a child to attend a wedding abroad if they had

I agree that the rules are much too ‘one size fits all’. They also seem to conflate population exam success with individual success (and it is a gross oversimplification to equate exam success with life ‘success’ - if there is such a thing). I too would love to see the evidence base for the fines - that demonstrate a causal association with ‘success’ not just number of absences

My DS has had lots of sick leave due to endless vomiting bugs and croup. I doubt the teacher would appreciate him coming to school with either. I requested a day of leave in the last week of summer term to allow us to go on holiday. Due to my rota I cannot take leave in August. It wasn’t authorised, so we didn’t go. When I asked DS what he had done on that day he told me that they had watched cartoons and helped tidy the classroom for summer. Not sure how that equates with a beneficial learning experience?

At least half the price(sometimes more) of the holidays is the airplane tickets. The increase in hotel prices is mostly reasonable and expected, the flights aren't.

YourSarcasmIsDripping

Airlines price tickets based on demand. It’s a pretty sensible model. Their margins are tiny.

It 8s the unfairness that gets me, our local school has quite a few traveller children. They dont attend school on Fridays as that's "lads and Dads day", when they go to work with their parents.
Same school allows children from Asian families time off to visit relatives abroad (several weeks at a time). Yet, they charged my friend £60 "per parent" per day when she took her 2 out to attend her brothers wedding. Wedding had been arranged at short notice as he was dying.
HOW is this fair?

As I understand it, the reason why parents aren't allowed to take their children out of school in term time because they will be missing out on 'education'. There is no acknowledgement that the holiday the kids are taken out of school for adds to their education. Different cultures, languages, customs etc if holidaying in different countries, active holidays add to their physical education, even playing on the beach or by a pool adds to their social education... I could go on.

Enabling parents to take kids out during term time expands the possibilities of this type of education for most families because it's is so much cheaper to take kids in term time.

Also, it seems ridiculous that I could homeschool my children and there are no checks to speak of to make sure I'm educating them properly....and we could holiday at any time. However, because my children are conventionally educated at school, we are penalised. How is that fair?

I think 10 days a year allowed as standard would be great... on the proviso that parents catch up on the work that was covered while their child was away...