MNHQ here: Parliamentary debate on authorised absence from school – an MP wants to know your views

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

Parliament's engagement team have been in touch about an upcoming debate they'd like you to contribute to: I'll let them take it from here

“Would you request authorised absence from school during term time for your child? Under what circumstances? If you have requested an absence, was it granted?"

"Steve Double MP is holding a debate on authorised absence from school on Wednesday 5 June and he wants to hear about your experiences and opinions on the topic."

"For a bit of context: in April 2017, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled against Jon Platt, a father who refused to pay a fine for taking his daughter out of school for a holiday during term-time. The judgement strengthened the controversial penalty notice system in England, under which parents may be fined for taking their child out of school without authorisation."

"Critics of the system highlight the high cost of holidays outside term-time, and the impact on tourism in the UK. The Government has maintained that ensuring school attendance is key to raising children’s attainment."

"Please reply with your views by Friday 31 May for them to be fed back to Steve Double before his debate. Alternatively, leave a comment on our Facebook page here”

Thanks
MNHQ

I'd like some consistency in the system. I took my DC out of school to go skiing. With the fine it was still significantly cheaper. But only was fined for one child. Both kids in the same school! That is daft.

turkeyboots

Would you have preferred to be fined twice? Sounds like they were using their discretion to help you out.

Military family here too and our 2 day request was also unauthorised (ks3) but we luckily didnt get a fine. I would have fought it anyway because traveller students ( albeit not many enrolled now) from our school are allowed time out whenever they want
There needs to be some discretion when otherwise attendance is perfect.

Clearly happy to only be fined once, but seems ridiculous that they pick and choose when to fine.

I have always thought that families should be able to bank 1-2 weeks' authorised absence (for holidays and family events) throughout their DCs education. This would allow parents a bit of freedom and flexibility, as well as making them feel less dictated to by authorities. It could potentially also enable fines to be higher for transcending the rules and permissions.

Personally I think there does need to be some flexibility, particularly in areas where the population may not be 'local' to their extended families.

Context is key though. Also, families would need to adhere to the 'contract' with school in other ways too - learning, attendance etc...

The only time we have ever asked for authorised leave (one day in total) was to attend a very significant wedding anniversary party for one set of grandparents. One of very few happy occasions when the scattered extended family would get together (some 300 miles+ away from where we live). Family relationships are also important to children's lives and sense of well-being. It was during the summer term (within the last fortnight of the academic year) when both DC were at primary school, they had both finished school work and we complied to ensure that children only left mid-afternoon on the Friday and were back in school for afternoon registration on the Monday.

This year DC1 is doing A Levels. It would be good to be able to go on a cheaper family holiday before the official end of term, but no we can't because DC2 (at secondary school, not in an 'important year') will still be in school, despite already having done end-of-year exams.

Personally feel that with only one full school day ever 'used' in this way to date, (and both DC having very good attendance levels across their school careers), a week at this stage would be most welcome and well deserved.

turkeyboots

It could easily be that they had to fine, but had discretion about whether to apply to one or both children.

I would like the blanket rigidity of attendance, which penalises children with health issues and chaotic lives, to be scrapped frankly. Exclusionary rewards for the lucky ones can get in the sea. And the rest of it all feeds out of that.

I live in an area that doesn’t have fines and still agrees authorised absences for sensible reasons. I moved from one where my child’s primary told us on induction day that they took all kids with 100% attendance for a treat at the end of the year and, while ‘obviously’ medical appointments and hospitalisations were authorised absences (big of them), they did count again that 100% figure.

Add to that friends who were refused authorisation for funerals, weddings etc, and the whole environment felt unnecessary confrontational towards parents and children.

Parents taking the piss with holidays will continue to take the piss, and the rest of us have to exist in an unhappy environment.

And when we moved, we realised that our pre-booked half term holiday was for the old half term rather than the new. We were authorised with a cheerful letter and asked to send photos back so the whole class could enjoy seeing them.

My personal view is that ultimately as parents we have responsibility for our children and to decide what’s best for them. And that should include deciding if it’s appropriate to take them out of school. We took my eldest out for two weeks last year (yr2) and will be doing the same next year (yr4) (so every other year) Unexpectedly this was actually authorised by his school! He is doing brilliantly at school and otherwise has great attendance - and I feel that as his parent I should be able to look at those factors and decide it’s acceptable to take him out or not. We would happily do this up to gcse years. I think that parents should be allowed to take their children out for up to 10 school days a year if they choose.

I think term time absences should be a decision for parents to make. It is all very well saying that the children get 13 weeks off a year but what happens when you work with other parents and you are unable to take the same weeks off due to cover and your husband has the same challenges so much so that you can't find a week to take off together?

The current system is such a blunt tool and doesn't allow for nuances. My DHs family live literally on the other side of the world so spending time with his family is expensive and difficult as the school holidays don't match up, so doing anything with cousins and grandparents is an almighty ball ache, before you factor in cost of flights etc. To be fair my DDs school have been extremely reasonable and authorised absence for us to go this year. So my job is to make sure the trip was educational and the girls gave a little presentation about their trip to their classes when they returned.

Ultimately schools need to educate children and parents need to facilitate that, but not at the expense of dictating what value other experiences have in a child's education.

We had our holiday authorised last year. It was the only full week of leave available to DH for the foreseeable future, the rest of the available leave was a maximum block of 2-3 days, and his employer confirmed this in an email so school authorised it.

They have not been so helpful in the past. Oldest DS has ASD and can't cope with holidays in busy periods such as school holidays. We had a previous term time holiday refused on the grounds that he would just have to learn to cope DH couldn't get leave in the school holidays that year either and the head of the governers told me that they wouldn't consider this to be exceptional circumstances because I could take the children away on my own in the school holidays instead.

I think that term time holidays should be authorised at the headteachers discretion and that there should be clearer guidelines/points to consider issued to schools around what sort of circumstances would/should be approved, this would clarify matters for both sides. Headteachers should be able to authorise up to ten days of discretionary leave, including leave for the purposes of a family holiday, and this shouldn't just be limited to "exceptional circumstances". Bringing in the idea of exceptional circumstances was wrong because one person's exceptional is another person's trivial, all this does is create resentment in parents towards schools when requests are rejected for what feel like personal or petty reasons.

If parents want discretion over absences, doesn’t it also make sense to remove accountability measures for those children? You can’t realistically demand to have free rein when it comes to attendance and then let the staff take the blame if the children fail... Who would sign an agreement saying they understood that if the child’s attendance was below 95% at the end of Y11 for either the whole of school or for Y10-11 because of any planned absences, they would consent to the school removing their child’s results from the totals at the end of Y11?

Raising school attendance is indeed part of raising attainment...but the children not attaining don't seem to be the ones taken out for a one week holiday with their loving supportive family or having a day off to attend their Aunt's Wedding. This is a 'low hanging fruit' so the government can say it has done something to tackle attendance.

Those struggling with attainment seems to be the children who have a much more difficult life with a chaotic background - who are perhaps late 3 times a week, missing 30 mins of learning each day and then miss one or two days off each fortnight for mystery tummy bugs and fevers. (remember code I is an authorised absence code that is most often requested)

Or children with special educational needs not being met to the point they struggle to attend school.

Or children with real health problems who are chased for attendance rather than supported to learn around their health needs.

I just don't feel the fine system is well thought through. It doesn't help families struggling to get their children into school because they aren't coping or just don't value education themselves. It would be better to support families in this situation though home-school link workers, free breakfast schemes, taxi's on rainy days (yes seriously).

it doesn't help families of children with educational or health needs -Please see Not Fine in School for information about attendance for children with health needs for the best set of resources on this issue if you are interested.

Parents who want to go on holiday just see it as part of the cost of a holiday. It almost legitimises it by putting a value on education. Its not all about a holiday being cheaper, sometimes that's the only time you can get annual leave, or you are visiting relatives and that's when the weather in that country is better and it ties in with what they can do; or its a holiday around a specific event that is going on eg that's the day of the wedding so that's when you have to go.

Like so many other posters my overriding comment is that the current policy is far too inflexible.

To be clear, I'm not a fan of taking children out of school during term time, but I do appreciate there are circumstances where this is warranted.

In cases where a child's attendance is good and there are no conflicts with key educational events (e.g. SATS) I think a degree of flexibility is warranted.

Rather than a blanket ban, I'd like to see guidelines brought in that Head Teachers can use as baseline when making a decision.

Factors to consider:

• conflicts with key educational events
• the reason for the request (e.g. consider the value of it, it might not be school but a major sporting event as a special occasion is educational in itself by way of example or the first time a child has the opportunity to go abroad)
• attendance/performance of the child
• ability of the parents to take time off outside term time (e.g. employment commitments)
• Major family events (weddings/funerals/milestone birthdays)
• any special needs that could impact the request
• the overall family situation (by which I mean the child for which the absence requests may be the sibling of a child with special needs or have parents with a disability that would make "busy" periods unfeasible to travel during).
• how much time off is being requested and is this a common occurrence?

I'm probably in a minority but I don't think "because it's cheaper" is a good reason and I think there's very little that can be done to influence the industry - it's simply supply and demand.

I also think 10 days is too much. 5 days seems about right.

With global families and high price travel in the school holidays the reality is some families will always opt to travel in term time or people may inconsiderately pass away outside of the holidays. Who suffers if a child misses two weeks of school for a holiday and family events? Is their education genuinely at risk? Is it too difficult for teachers to manage? What could be put in to support additional leave?

There needs to be an honest assessment of why attendance is deemed to be so important and research to support it. Correlation not being causation; a child with good attendance might be doing well but it doesn't follow that high attendance of a struggling child means they will perform better if the reason they have been absent is illness, a chaotic home life or careers responsibilities (for example). In both cases a holiday might be just what they need.

I think teacher discretion is important but two weeks per year without question should be the starting point.

Who suffers if a child misses two weeks of school for a holiday and family events? Is their education genuinely at risk? Is it too difficult for teachers to manage? What could be put in to support additional leave?

If a child needs additional support in order for time spent out of school not to affect their education, it should not be granted.

Both DCs were granted authorised absence for a family holiday this year. We had moved from another LA and term dates were slightly different, but the holiday was booked and paid for. DS attendance is low due to school refusal/anxiety and other issues (he's being assessed for ASD) but his headteacher said in her letter that while holidays aren't normally authorised, there were exceptional circumstances and 'a holiday will do wonders for his wellbeing'.

That's the right attitude IMO. Less concern about figures and more concern for the wellbeing of the child.

I've struggled with this for years - I have a musical child who is often offered opportunities in term time. Prior to KS4 I used to let her take them as she wants to be a professional musician and it was usually of more benefit than most of the school day. Head didn't like it but was happy enough to allow absence in other cases - eg sending talented sports players on days out. It seemed unfair that children who were good at sport routinely got taken out of school for activities because the PE staff organised them. Whereas those interested in music didn't get taken to anything (music staff didn't organise anything).

I think that more needs to be done for talented children across the board and it shouldn't be down to a head to decide that it is ok to miss school for one type of activity but not another.

I have a disabled child under seven specialists among these is CAMHS and sleep specialist which due to appointments and sleeping difficulties results in absence. We get letters due to this which add to the stress. We try to holiday during school holidays only so all absences are illnesses or appointment/sleep related which school are aware of. Children with ailments or disabilities struggle to get good attendance so these letters punish them unnecessarily

It's interesting that this has come up just now as we're grappling with this issue at home.

DD has pretty much 100% attendance for the whole of primary school - and she's coming to the end of Year 4. That's not anything but just plain good luck on our part, and could well change tomorrow, but I digress.

My dad - her only granddad, and the only 'grandparent' she has any sort of relationship with at all - is getting married. I am his only child; DD is his only blood grandchild. (Future wife has a grand-daughter, but that's a separate thread!)

His wedding is (in what admittedly is a stellar example of poor planning) booked for the third week of september.

DD's school are having absolute kittens about the day, can't and won't authorise it and are actually talking about action and court etc. This for a child who has missed 2.5 days total in 6 years of being at the school, nursery to now, and who is working well above expectations in all subjects.

I don't dispute that it's a crap date - I am exceedingly annoyed at the lack of forethought - but, ultimately, it's one day for a wedding and I really don't think it's too much to ask that we attend.

And the the reason for all the drama? Attendance is calculated on the days in school so far in that year. Accordingly, because it's in September, that 1 day off will drop DD's attendance well below the magic 95%, and so is causing massive issues. Her headteacher is fuming, but ultimate powerless.

My point is this - not only does the current policy of blanket refusal completely fail to accommodate any flexibility for big life events such as this - it also appears (at least in our LEA) that it's utterly arbitrary. If we took her out NOW, no-one would even care, but in September, it'll be a huge mess. It's ridiculous and practically designed to cause conflict between the school and family.

There needs to be much clearer guidance for good quality extra curricular activities. Children who play sports at a fairly high level or similarly instruments /dance etc should not be penalised for taking time out.

Also, there should be a system to ensure that if teachers are literally going to be letting children watch TV/play games all day (eg at the end of the summer term) then it should be fine for children to miss those days without consequence.

the current system is too much of a blunt instrument and encourages lying.

It also doesn't make any sense that I could face a hefty fine for pulling my daughter out for a few days yet my sister who is "homeschooling' hasn't even been inspected or contacted in the past year

NeverTwerkNaked

It does. As a PP said, we are not prisoners of the state. If we want to educate our children ourselves, we have that right.

My sons primary school don't fine anyone, one of the mums is a receptionist there and told us. I wouldn't take him out of school for a holiday. I don't understand why they don't follow the protocol but other schools seem to be rigorous about it.

I am an associate professor in a university so very au fait with the education sector however I really struggle with our current absence system being so rigid.

For instance doctors notes are needed even for illnesses where you shouldn't visit the doctor - i.e. Chicken pox.

The 95% attendance target is impossible for many children who get routine child illness. I have felt pressurised by the school to send in my child even if they are ill so it doesn't affect their attendance targets.

Children learn a great deal from holidays and bond with their families which is arguably as or more important than endless academic achievements.

I am considering home educating my children as the current system lacks the flexibility which is needed in modern life. My child has special needs which means he gets very tired (wears hearing aids and so the extra effort of listening in a busy environment is tiring). My children and I are exhausted every Friday from the rigid school system. We would like to see the return of allowing flexi schooling, which would fit more with the modern work place. Even though I am an expert educated person, school staff often talk down to me. Overall our school system is stuck in a victorian industrial era, whereas society in general has moved on substantially. I would also support schools closing early on Fridays as some schools have trialled.