MNHQ here: Parliamentary debate on authorised absence from school – an MP wants to know your views

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

Parliament's engagement team have been in touch about an upcoming debate they'd like you to contribute to: I'll let them take it from here

“Would you request authorised absence from school during term time for your child? Under what circumstances? If you have requested an absence, was it granted?"

"Steve Double MP is holding a debate on authorised absence from school on Wednesday 5 June and he wants to hear about your experiences and opinions on the topic."

"For a bit of context: in April 2017, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled against Jon Platt, a father who refused to pay a fine for taking his daughter out of school for a holiday during term-time. The judgement strengthened the controversial penalty notice system in England, under which parents may be fined for taking their child out of school without authorisation."

"Critics of the system highlight the high cost of holidays outside term-time, and the impact on tourism in the UK. The Government has maintained that ensuring school attendance is key to raising children’s attainment."

"Please reply with your views by Friday 31 May for them to be fed back to Steve Double before his debate. Alternatively, leave a comment on our Facebook page here”

Thanks
MNHQ

I took my older children on term time holidays throughout their school years, they both left university with first class masters degrees in stem subjects, in fact my ds also has 6 weeks off school for an eye injury.
I'll take my youngest out now for term time holidays and pay the fine, as will many others, she has good attendance and high attainment, I dont think the ban will ever prevent this happening.
Maybe adjust the summer holidays to 4 weeks and give a standard authorisation for 2 weeks elsewhere in the year, some will take it, some wont.

Wasnt this action originally to get kids with low attendance into school (refusers, chaotic homes etc..), how has it become all about term time holidays? The majority of children on term time holidays are the ones who generally have the highest attendance rates anyway and the ones it was meant to be targeting are still not attending properly, nor are they being fined as the parents just say they're sick.

I think the current system is not fit for purpose and, as a PP said, is really just so the gvt can pretend it's doing something about attendance rates.

The kids who have sporadic attendance/chaotic lives are often from families who need support, not punishment.

With regards to term time holidays, I think if some broad educational benefit can be demonstrated then it should be up to the parents to decide. I used to go on holiday in term time every year and kept holiday diaries for school - it did me absolutely no harm educationally.

Support families that are struggling with attendance and let parents decide re holidays.

I don't think the current fines deter people. They need to be higher, much higher.

Education in the UK is free at the point if use but costs an awful lot. Therefore it should be used to its fullest extent. There are thirteen weeks a year to go away in not to mention all the weekends, bank hols etc.

American children get 13 weeks off for their summer holidays ( imagine that), the kids are still allowed to be taken out for holidays and yet America still manages to produce plenty of bright adults.

I went on holiday for 2 weeks in school time every year and it had no long term detrimental affect on my education.

I think the government needs to back off, a previous poster has already said it- it isn’t the children who are taking term time holidays whose education is affected. It’s the children with chaotic lives who come to school sporadically who need supporting.

School is there for us to use, let us use it, but it’s not a prison for children and as parents we don’t need dictating to about what’s right for our children based merely on our holiday/family time choices.

I’d have no problem with a teacher having a week off per year for a holiday before GCSE stage. At GCSE stage and above I’m not sure. I do think attendance is important at that level and wouldn’t take a child out of school. Even then I might be ok with the teacher being away but do not know enough about that level of education to comment.

As I said, my concerns are more about other reasons for non-attendance than holidays anyway.

Families need to spend quality time together and if that means the children taking a week off school then that’s worth it.

There is nothing wrong with a couple of weeks off per year provided the children have good attendance the rest of the year and aren’t struggling to keep up. Only the teachers in an individual child’s school can really make that judgment call as to whether the absence in question is once of many persistent absences causing harm to a child’s education or whether it’s a valuable week of quality time spent with a child’s family which will have little to no impact on their education.

We need to give our teachers more discretion to act in the best interests of the individual child rather than have government making a blanket ban on absences. The ban on absences is in the interests of tackling truancy of a small minority but it works to the detriment of hundreds of families who just want an affordable holiday.

I do think it should be at the HT discretion

I know of two instances when a term time holiday was felt to be important but the head teachers hand were tied

Not that it stopped either family to be fair

Previously it was at the discretion of the school and this was the right approach. Two week holidays in term time are rarely justified but a few days to visit family, attend a wedding or funeral should not be a reason for punishment. All that's happening now is parents are calling their kids in sick which mucks up their attendance figures anyway and also teaches kids to lie when they want a day off.

Firstly, given that the Education Act 1996 makes parents responsible for the education of their children, and not the schools, it is clear that ultimately it is the parents' duty and responsibility to provide their children with an education. If the parents consider that taking their child out of school for a week is still fulfilling this duty and responsibility, by law, the school cannot override this decision. It should not be penalised by a fine because the letter of the law says that it is the parents' responsibility, hence choice:

Firstly, given that the Education Act 1996 makes parents responsible for the education of their children, and not the schools, it is clear that ultimately it is the parents' duty and responsibility to provide their children with an education. If the parents consider that taking their child out of school for a week is still fulfilling this duty and responsibility, by law, the school cannot override this decision. It should not be penalised by a fine because the letter of the law says that it is the parents' responsibility, hence choice:

Section 7 of the Education Act 1996 applies to England and Wales:

Compulsory education

7: Duty of parents to secure education of children of compulsory school age

The parent of every child of compulsory school age shall cause him to receive efficient full-time education suitable—

a: to his age, ability and aptitude, and

b: to any special educational needs he may have, either by regular attendance at school or otherwise.

Generally, otherwise has been taken as "home education or home schooling". However, as it is not specified further, otherwise can be taken as "education" through a holiday, attending social and cultural celebrations and ceremonies (i.e. weddings, etc).

I would also like to highlight the terrible example secondary and primary schools set giving prices for attendance, as if simply "being" present in class makes people learn, diminishing the effort and work students need to actually improve and learn. Also, punishing students who fall ill or suffer from chronic illnesses.

Another issue we should consider is the fact that this current epidemic of school absences due to holidays would probably not occur if people in general had not lost their faith in the school system. Let's be honest, when it comes down to it, most people don't really think missing a week is very important. It is not because they don't care about their children education, but because most of us are wise to the amount of time wasted by staff at schools monitoring school uniforms, giving out books, gluing photocopies on books, dealing with behaviour issues...

On the other hand, if the government applied some of the good techniques used in most other countries, namely made teachers be transparent with what students are learning, have clear textbooks, let students take their work home everyday, families would be able to help students catch up during "holidays" without having the school staff recite the same mantra: for so many hours missed then you will drop so many points in your GCSEs...

I meant "prizes"

Schools should be able to authorise absences for events that an adult would normally take leave to attend. Weddings, funerals, compassionate leave for family illnesses or deaths, and perhaps a maximum of 1-2 weeks holiday.

Travelling is a part of broader life experience and schools shouldn’t be able to exclude children from that. This year we’re travelling to an exhibition that’s only on for a few days and a classical music concert that’s one night only, so we couldn’t go during school holidays. Why should DC have to miss that?

Important for children to be able to go to music/ dance exams which may be some distance away.

Agree also that should be discretionary. We take a couple of days at the end of summer or spring term (most has been 4 days) every 3 years to go and visit family abroad. Why should children, who have excellent attendance generally, be denied a few days at end of term? I remember a time where Heads were allowed to give permission and I would receive it, because my children do well, work hard and we don't abuse attendance.

Oh, and finally. It's got silly now where our school imply it would be better to phone in sick and lie than take an unauthorised absence (looks worse for them than 'illness').

Although I am not a fan of the blanket ban, I don't think there is a workable alternative. Any discretionary system just involves a LOT of hassle for headteachers who need to try and distinguish whether attendance at, say, (another) cousin's wedding, or extended visit to see grandparents, is appropriate: which treads into all sorts of familial and cultural issues. Who would want to adjudicate over decisions like these?

I think what the ban does is somewhat change the narrative around school attendance: that it is essential and that choosing to miss days affects the student, affects others students (I promise you, a teacher having to explain large areas already covered really does affect the rest of the class) and ultimately the school.

None of us like it when it affects us, we all might think that our reasons for choosing to be absent are reasonable (and of course, others' reasons are frivolous) but a discretionary system just adds another factor to make the job of HT even more difficult.

We are always good at talking about rights, but much less so about responsibilities. Children (in England) have 25% of the year in holiday: plenty of time for those educational visits and trips (plenty of us can't afford holidays of any sort, so the cost of flights argument is not a shared one). I am not entirely convinced that a holiday is more important than school, and the 'turn up if you want to' approach it might engender in children.

The flaw, however, is finding a system which does not encourage parents to lie about the reasons for absence. Ultimately we really want nudge techniques to work rather than the 'stick' of fines, I suppose?

Basing authorisation on attendance will be discriminate against disabled children, children who can have very good reasons for asking for a term time holiday.

Head teachers should have some discretion. School holidays and trips are often in term time. If half of year 9 are on a skiing trip then why can't a child who's parent cannot afford the trip go stay with granny for a week?

If it was planned in advance then all of, say, year 9 could have the options of, ski trip, school or a week educated 'off site'.

I realise that could still be tricky if you have children in different years / schools.

Lots of schools now have days or even weeks where children are 'off timetable' for enrichment activities and these often involve the whole school.

If coordinated across a town / LEA there could be a real opportunity for enrichment activities in school, an option to take a family holiday and an option for a school trip. So town X might have a week in October where all the schools are off timetable and town Y a week in March.

Head teachers should also be able to give more authorised absence depending on the circumstances. When my mum died her grandchildren had to travel 7 hours to attend the funeral. The youngest was still in school and had 1 day authorised and another unauthorised because the HT couldn't authorise more (or wouldn't, but I think it was couldn't) and there was no way the trip could be done in a single day.

I’ve never understood why religion doesn’t impact on schooling. Holidays for religious reasons are ok...

Nor do the half days the schools put in when it suits, the afternoons watching dvds or films..

Look at the stress children are under. If one or two weeks has such a detrimental impact on the child, then something is wrong with the schooling. Or the pressure the schools and children are under.

My children are all 'greater depth ' (hate that term), but they benefit from time out. I still want to make my own parenting decisions.

School time fees are yet another tax on the poor.

Echoing others we rang into the school and said the children were ill

We only wanted a day (the last day of term) ...first time in nearly 8 years, so i felt not one second of guilt about it

I think if children are going to be allowed to benefit from cheaper holidays, then teachers should be able to as well.
Imo, foreign holidays are not something everyone can afford. If you can't afford one in school holidays, then go camping in the uk. It's the time spent together that counts, not the sunshine. So I would say no to authorising holidays during term.
Weddings, funerals etc need to be at the HT discretion, according to overall attendance and achievement in school.

It's the time spent together that counts, not the sunshine.

Yeah because being stuck in a room or a tent for a week being wet,cold and miserable is the epitome of quality family time. Not that camping would class as a holiday for me anyways...but the sunshine does matter.

For many people this isn't about cheaper holidays. We live in Cornwall, my husband's business is directly related to tourism and he cannot have time off during school holidays. I work in an industry that isn't directly to do with tourism but IS affected by the large influx of people in the county during school holidays so it is harder to get time off (all services here, e.g. NHS are really stretched during school holidays due to huge increase in population). So essentially because we facilitate other people's holidays we can't take them ourselves. We either don't have a week together as a family for the entire of my children's schooling eg no family holiday until they're adults or we accept the fines. So we accept the fines. Many families are in this situation and luckily our head teacher and Cornwall council have been very pragmatic about this so far. My children have had 5 days off for a term time holiday this year, they have had no other time off at all.

Hello

Thanks so much for all your thoughts - plainly an issue that lots of you feel strongly about! The Parliament engagement team will be writing their briefing for Steve Double MP now so won't be able to include anything posted after this point, but they wanted to pass on the following message:

“Many thanks to all of you for taking the time to contribute your thoughts and experiences on this topic.

We will work with Mumsnet to post follow-up content about the debate after it has taken place. In the meantime, you might be interested in this briefing written by the House of Commons Library about the 2017 Supreme Court case on term-time holidays: ”

The present policy is too blunt. I have had one child turned down for missing the last 1/2 day of term to travel to a family wedding - absolutely nothing educational was happening that day.
I did have one 5 day holiday approved in the past (under the previous system) as at the time DH was away a lot and it was a chance of family time.
We have had odd days etc. Approved for: funerals of various family members (including step-grandmother), musical performances.

There are also times that some children just need an absence for mental health reasons.