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Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

(607 Posts)
BertrandRussell Sat 10-Feb-18 08:31:45

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

Ekphrasis Sat 10-Feb-18 09:22:56

A few years ago I'd have said no because I didn't think it was necessary today. I believed fights had been won etc and 'feminists' were extremists in a way. I used to just read the guardian and life was content.

Since having a child and ageing and understanding finer points of life, economics, politics, reading about others' lives (actually a lot through here and being able to access more info from different sources on the internet) I've realised that:

1) there are still deep seated issues for women and gender stereotypes, which work against girls and boys. Deeply ingrained misogyny and patriarchy in areas of the uk.

2) new issues are arising due to porn, the internet etc.

3) biology really can oppress women both on its own and due to misogyny.

4) there's still a way to go.

5) I had beliefs I didn't realise were feminist ones.

Not quite what you wanted but, I would have said no a while ago.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 Sat 10-Feb-18 09:30:05

I dont think i would ever have said no

But then my impression of feminism was that it was working to give women equal opportunities

And i know thats really basic but i did read it when i was much younger

The fact that the meaning of the word may have changed and i may disagree with some feminists or maybe some of the tenets doesnt mean that i should no longer use the word in conjunction with myself

As people are saying with the christian comparison my mum was a catholic, she wouldnt not call herself one because of the actions of another catholic

hungryhenryshouldeatelsewhere Sat 10-Feb-18 09:33:27

The only feminist talk I ever come across is on mumsnet and it seems completely centred around trans issues recently.

I can identify as a feminist in the sense that I want women to be equal to men, but then I'm more of the opinion that everybody should be equal. Wording it that women should be equal to men implies that men are somehow better than women, and in my own personal experiences I have never encountered a situation where I felt less worthy or respected than a man.

I can't get on board with the side of feminism that groups all women together, or all men together. We are all individuals with different experiences and there is no one size fits all opinion to follow. I don't think trans people using female toilets is a problem and I don't think they're all sexual deviants out to flash their dicks at anyone in the vicinity. I don't think that men are horrible, leering misogynists. I don't think women are overly objectified, and women who choose to be darts walk-on girls, porn stars or glamour models have the right to do so if they want to. I think women and men have the right to express their sexuality and sexual interests as long as all parties consent.

What I do want is for everybody to be paid equally for the same job. I want men and women to have the same opportunities. What I don't want is feminists telling me that my husband is disgusting because he likes to watch porn, or that I don't respect women because I don't have a problem with it.

BertrandRussell Sat 10-Feb-18 09:37:04

But if you don't have a problem with porn, then you by definition don't have a problem with women being commodified for sex? Or with women being trafficked and exploited? Not sure how feminism is supposed to accommodate that.....

LifeBeginsAtGin Sat 10-Feb-18 09:38:21

I believe in equality for all, but not Feminism.

fidgetsmumx Sat 10-Feb-18 09:42:33

I wouldn’t say I’m a feminist, I think everyone should be treated equally but I wouldn’t say I’m a feminist.

I only really see feminism on TV and the women who portray it are so offended, like they have a bee in their bonnet constantly. I’m far too relaxed for that, and to be fair I don’t think I’m treated any differently in my life to men.
I always see the question over who should pay for dinner when feminism comes up, and Id prefer my partner to pay lol!

BertrandRussell Sat 10-Feb-18 09:42:57

Why not, Life?

ClashCityRocker Sat 10-Feb-18 09:43:06

I used to say I wasn't a feminist because I felt that a lot of feminist theory that I had been exposed to - admittedly, not read deeper into - but things I had read on forums, blogs and newspaper articles portrayed women as victims.

And I didn't feel like a victim.

So I didn't feel that feminism applied to me, or that at worst feminist theory was looking for problems that didn't really exist in my immediate world.

As I've got older I've started seeing it a bit differently. Just little things, but when you're constantly told how lucky you are because dh makes tea twice a week and pitches in with the housework rather than that being the standard default position for an adult....

When you score the highest mark in an aptitude test for a motor mechanic apprenticeship to only be offered roles in sales or customer services...

When you're buying a car and the sales assistant is telling your dh about the spec, features etc and then turns to you and asks what colour you would like....

When you meet different company directors every day and nine times out of ten, it's a man...

Just small everyday things.

I mean I knew there were huge issues prior to this - forced marriage, FGM, within the church etc....and of course I always believed these were very wrong and should be stopped (and have worked with charities trying to do so in the past) it kind of felt beyond feminism and didn't compare to the every day stuff.

Then I realised that actually it all comes from the same place.

FrancinePefko Sat 10-Feb-18 09:43:30

I fully agree with equality of rights and freedoms (for all people). I choose to avoid any and all labels ending in "ist" because the minute you adopt the label you allow yourself to be defined by the extreme wings of the movement. I just do not have he time or energy to be constantly saying "Oh no, I'm not that kind. I'm this kind".

So it IS possible to believe in equal rights (for all people) but prefer not to label oneself.

BertrandRussell Sat 10-Feb-18 09:43:51

"I only really see feminism on TV and the women who portray it are so offended, like they have a bee in their bonnet constantly"

What and who have you seen?

Wordshurt Sat 10-Feb-18 09:45:06

I'm another person who believes in equality for all. I wouldn't call myself a feminist because it connects me to a group of people who I don't consider to all share that value.

I want equal rights for women - not more rights for women to the detriment of any other group, including men. Call me simple, but I just want a world where everyone is treated fairly and just gets along...

IWannaSeeHowItEnds Sat 10-Feb-18 09:47:35

hungry lots of people don't have a prpblem with porn because they think those women have all consented amd it's a free choice to post videos of them havo g sex on the internet. But it often isn't. So if you don't have a problem with porn, you are in effect saying that you don't have a problrm with women bring trafficked and raped.

I used to think I was never held back on account of being female. I'd groen up being told I could be/do anything and I utterly believed it. It's only now I am older and look back that I see things like the jobs I lost out on (to men with exactly the same qualifications and experience) because as a young woman of child bearing age, they were a safer bet.

PoppyCherry Sat 10-Feb-18 09:50:20

Dictionary definition of feminism...

the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

FrancinePefko Sat 10-Feb-18 09:51:21

BertrandRussell

"I only really see feminism on TV and the women who portray it are so offended, like they have a bee in their bonnet constantly"

What and who have you seen

Julie Bindel, Linda Bellos, Andrea Dworkin....

picklemepopcorn Sat 10-Feb-18 09:51:48

I wasn't a feminist for a good few years, because I felt that we had basically 'done it'.

But the rise in commodification of women's bodies, sexism, gender identity trumping biology, porn etc has really disappointed me so I'm back on board.

Pumperthepumper Sat 10-Feb-18 09:57:44

For those of you who say ‘I believe in equality but not feminism’ - could you expand more on what that means?

So, for example, a lot of industries are dominated in favour of one sex - STEM subjects seem to be male based while ‘caring’ industries tend to be female based. How do you get equality here without focusing on getting more girls into STEM and boys into nursing? How do you get equality without targeting the missing link?

Male violence, for example - it’s a fact that overwhelmingly violence and sex-related crimes are carried out by men. How do you combat that by saying ‘we need to stop ALL violence’ - how do you target the issue by treating everyone equally?

I worry that when people say ‘equality’ they mean ‘treat everyone exactly the same’ - which tends to mean women should give up some of their rights to accommodate men (women’s safe spaces, maternity leave etc) but should still not be entitled to women-only recruitment, pay rises to match their male colleagues or fair responsibilities for childcare.

araiwa Sat 10-Feb-18 10:00:09

So if you don't have a problem with porn, you are in effect saying that you don't have a problrm with women bring trafficked and raped.

sentences like this are the reason i say im not

ludicrous and absurd logic that gives others a thing to laugh at and a stick to beat feminism with

MargaretCavendish Sat 10-Feb-18 10:01:13

Julie Bindel, Linda Bellos, Andrea Dworkin....

I'd suggest that if this is your go-to list of current feminists then you're working from both an outdated and a very narrow list. Dworkin has been dead for 12 years...

MephistophelesApprentice Sat 10-Feb-18 10:01:35

Collective responsibility/class analysis is just an excuse to be prejudiced against people for the things people like them have done. Such behaviour lies at the root of racism, sexism and all the other prejudices that oppress the individual. People should be valued on their specific, chosen behaviour towards others, not pigeonholed or judged for accidents of birth.

Some feminists accept this, but the majority do not; I will not share a banner with bigots or the prejudiced.

Lethaldrizzle Sat 10-Feb-18 10:02:25

Lifebegins - feminism is equality for all

HarveyKietelRabbit Sat 10-Feb-18 10:03:54

Don't you do this thread or similar every few weeks?

FrancinePefko Sat 10-Feb-18 10:05:40

MargaretCavendish
I'd suggest that if this is your go-to list of current feminists then you're working from both an outdated and a very narrow

Another reason why I totally avoid the movement is that its members can always be relied upon to sanctimoniously tell you that you haven't read enough or that your knowledge is lacking.

I know. I know. I know. AND I COULDN'T GIVE A SHINY SHIT gringringrin

BertrandRussell Sat 10-Feb-18 10:06:21

"I want equal rights for women - not more rights for women to the detriment of any other group, including men."
Why do you think feminists want more rights for women than any other group?

BertrandRussell Sat 10-Feb-18 10:07:52

ariawa whybisbit kuducrous to say that not having a problem with porn means not having a problem with the commodification and trafficking of women?

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