Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

[BertrandRussell]

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

I think I've learned quite a lot about feminism from reading threads on Mumsnet actually, and I would say yes, I'm a feminist. I believe in equality and want my daughter to have every opportunity in life that my son has.

However, some of the radical feminist stuff does alienate me. I find it really hard to identify with that. I think a lot of women who have said no are perhaps put off by some of the radical feminist stuff they've read.

hungryhenryshouldeatelsewhere

Thank you for putting my thoughts into words. I couldn't have put it better myself.

OP, I really admire your persistence at trying to unpick the reasons why some women don’t consider themselves feminists.

But to be honest, don’t we have bigger fish to fry? If we stop fighting the cuts to women’s refuges for example, to spend time finding out what motivates a woman to say they think feminism impinges on men’s rights (upthread), aren’t we focusing on the wrong thing?

@Bertrand ah ok. I guess that's why I'm not a feminist then. I don't believe achieving equality for all is best done by just focusing on women's rights.

"Julie Bindel said marrying a man can never be a feminist choice."

Well, if you look at the patriarchal traditions surrounding marriage I think she's got a point! Marriage is certainly rooted in passing ownership of a woman from one man to another. But making an unfeminist choice does not mean you are not a feminist.

eyeswideshit genuine question, I hope this doesn’t come across as sarcastic but how do you think ‘equality’ can be achieved in that case? I asked this on the first page but no-one has answered yet.

why?

because the postings by feminists will put people off

tv existed 12 years ago- its possible to have seen dworking on tv and be put off feminism- "a bit extreme" is a bit of an understatement

porn does not equal rape and people trafficking

people are telling feminists why they dont want to be called a feminist and instead of listening to their reasons, they will be told that they are wrong and why

this is why this thread will end up showcasing why people avoid calling themselves feminists

@araiwa .. Thank you! 👏

I would say I'm a feminist but probably not in the MN sense. Reasons are -

• the feminist board and AIBU is saturated with the trans debate and I just don't get the angst about it.

• I'm tired of the prevalent insinuation that, as a SAHM, I should want "more" - that money = independence etc. I totally accept that a lot of women are speaking from personal experience, but there does seem to be a lot of bitterness that gets projected, all in the name of "feminism."

• Since having DC with my husband, I've experienced how men and women are instinctively and psychologically different. I don't think it's all down to societal expectations and, as I've got older, I've realised more that there are biological and psychological differences between men and women and very good reasons for this. Being told it's a "given" that I should want to return to work asap and do everything "50/50" is something I don't necessarily relate to.

• I don't think equality should mean "sameness." I don't think a gender neutral or "sexless" society is something to be aspired to particularly.

• To be absolutely honest, a lot of the people on the feminist board come across as too self-consciously academic for me. They sound a bit cut-off, defensive and lifeless. It's not that I don't agree with their perspectives, I just think there's wider dimensions to life and human relationships.

See the bs from Bertrand?

That is why I am not a feminist.

Being a feminist doesn't mean you have to agree with everything every other feminist says, anymore than being a conservative means you agree with everything every conservative says. Or being a anti-racist means you agree with everything every anti-racist says. OR being a member of a religion means you agree with everything all other members of that religion thinks.
it wouldn't occur to me not to call myself a feminist because I disagree with views and strands of feminism.
All movements have internal debates. All of them.
But feminism seems to be particularly targeted with, well I'm not a feminist because Julie Bindel is an arsey idiot (or thoughts to that effect...)

@pumper if I'm honest I don't think equality is possible. I do think we should strive to get as close as we can and to do that I think we need to acknowledge inequality on both sides.

"See the bs from Bertrand?"

Which bit?

1ndigo
I am a feminist and I believe that there are innate differences between men and women and that not all of the differences are societal or cultural.
Feminism is a broad church.

if I'm honest I don't think equality is possible. I do think we should strive to get as close as we can and to do that I think we need to acknowledge inequality on both sides.

Ok, that’s interesting. I don’t know if I agree or not, I think true equality in absolutely all circumstances would be very difficult but I think we can get a lot closer than we are now.

Which inequalities do you think we should look at on both sides, and how do you think we can make it better?

@SuburbanRhonda, I know what you mean but I see it as part of the same big fish. These issues are connected. The women who don’t identify with feminism are not seeing the big picture. Women are objectified and stereotyped by wider society (men and women) and this leads to discrimination. That seeps into every area of decision making, i.e government policy therefore cuts to services. It also feeds the mindset of the abusive men (not all men!) that make refuges necessary. That’s why it’s important to have these discussions. Every person who’s eyes are opened to the inequality is a win.

Sorry, just to add - which sex do you feel gets the better deal as it stands now?

The women who don’t identify with feminism are not seeing the big picture.

sorry, it seems that the reason i dont want to be called a feminist is actually because im stupid

This bit

Julie Bindel said marrying a man can never be a feminist choice."

Well, if you look at the patriarchal traditions surrounding marriage I think she's got a point!

Ffs

What is it about Bindel and Bellos that you object to?

I can't speak for other posters, but maybe the interview where she stated men should be put in fucking camps is a bit extreme for the rest of us!

Wiltubgfast-so you're not a feminist because someone on the internet said something you disagree with?

Incidentarlly, do you disagree that marriage has its roots in the idea of women being property to be handed from one man to another? Historically that would be a pretty difficult position to defend, whatever you think if it now....

I though feminism was just a logical extension of the suffragettes fight against sexist injustice.

Then I read this: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/30/women-gayrights

which suggested it's about controlling, judging and manipulating other women.

porn does not equal rape and people trafficking

Actually, it does. Unless you’re very careful and you and your husband are watching ethical porn, and you’re certain it’s ethical, chances are you are taking part in the ‘supply and demand’ issue which leads to trafficking. I’m afraid that’s a fact - so I feel it does come down to 1) admit that fact and do it anyway or 2) admit that fact and stop watching porn or 3) ignore that fact, which doesn’t change that it is a fact.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/fightthenewdrug.org/the-internet-can-be-a-very-unsexy-place-we/amp/

Q:Will hetro sexuality survive women’s liberation?

Bindel: It won’t, not unless men get their act together, have their power taken from them and behave themselves. I mean, I would actually put them all in some kind of camp where they can all drive around in quad bikes, or bicycles, or white vans. I would give them a choice of vehicles to drive around with, give them no porn, they wouldn’t be able to fight – we would have wardens, of course! Women who want to see their sons or male loved ones would be able to go and visit, or take them out like a library book, and then bring them back.

I hope heterosexuality doesn’t survive, actually. I would like to see a truce on heterosexuality. I would like an amnesty on heterosexuality until we have sorted ourselves out. Because under patriarchy it’s shit.

Yeah Bindel is just lovely. This is radical feminism. This is why I, and others think it's a fucking joke

Bindel was joking. As is obvious.