Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

[BertrandRussell]

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

Boys have not been historically told that engineering and physics are girls subjects have they?

Nope, they have not.

I have only recently come across BertrandRussell on MN and think you have summed her up very fairly.

It's absolutely fucking ridiculous to suggest that porn is the same as trafficking and raping women.

How can you, as a feminist, suggest that porn is inherently bad when there are women WHO CHOOSE TO DO IT?

This is the side of feminism that, frankly, can fuck right off. It's a completely hypocritical movement. Feminists saying "Women can do whatever they like.....except for you, you do porn so fuck you, and you, you watch porn, so fuck you, you support women being raped and trafficked" what a load of bollocks. It's this kind of drivel that makes me proud to NOT be a feminist. I support equality for women, and I don't want to be grouped with a bunch of people who can make a disgusting statement suggesting others support raping and trafficking women because they're so closed minded sexually.

What Dione said.

I’m not a feminist as far as MN is concerned because I don’t conform to the hive mind.

In RL, I do as much as I am able to be a positive role model and be supportive.

I don’t agree with the “we beleive you” either. Because it undermines innocent until proven guilty. And apparently that makes me not a feminist as well.

And what Harvey said.

“It's always this wide eyed 'i'm interested to hear why you think X or Y?' when to most of us who have been here long enough think it isn't a genuine interest and just an opportunity to tell people with differing opinions why they are wrong which comes across as an attempt to make the OP seem superior and obviously makes people feel defensive.”

How clever of you to be able to read your mind. I hesitate to say that you’re wrong for fear of confirming your view. But- you’re wrong. There is a big difference between telling people with opposing views that they are wrong, and telling people of opposing views that you disagree with them.

hungryhenryshouldeatelsewhere

Hungry, was that aimed at me? There absolutely is a connection between sex trafficking and pornography. I posted a link with more information on it a few pages back. It’s is absolutely a fact that if you’re not being really careful about watching strictly ethical porn then you absolutely are part of the ‘supply and demand’ issue that leads to sex trafficking. I know that’s a horrible realisation but it’s a fact, I’m afraid.

Incidentally, there were very few uses of “thick” “moron” or “stupid” on the other thread. And one poster who used “stupid” several times was pulled up sharply on it by a well known FWR regular.

I said I was an equalist on the other thread. I certainly have nothing in common with the extreme form of feminism and found it very interesting that all the posters who made rude or insulting comments on that thread were feminists talking to/about those who said No. I'm not sure what that tells us. Maybe being a feminist automatically endows you with a (usually unwarranted) superiority complex?

I also disagree, OP, with your assertion that all women in porn/the sex industry are commodified, trafficked and exploited. Do you really think none of those women made the choice? Are they all so pathetic and feeble that the only way they would be involved would be by being exploited, presumably by men? How do you account for threads I've seen on here by women interested in looking for info about doing sex/video chat lines etc? They seemingly want to do it of their own free will.

@Pumperthepumper it wasn't aimed at you directly, it was aimed collectively but points to you for being the only poster to provide s shred of evidence for your viewpoint; however you are suggesting that everybody is a careless consumer when you don't actually know what I, or my husband, or anybody else for that matter, choose to watch. Your credibility suffers for choosing a standpoint which relies so heavily on your own assumptions.

But those words WERE used, Bertrand.

I think a lot of women become feminists once they become mothers and realise how society screws them over because of this.

Feminists don’t stop you from watching porn. Pornographers (who are on the whole men) stop some women from not being able to opt out of being in porn through drugs, coercion, trafficking or filming acts or sharing film without consent. There’s more porn than feminism on the internet.

hungryhenryshouldeatelsewhere

Hungry, I am assuming nothing. Every post I’ve made on this subject has been with the caveat ‘excluding ethical porn’. If a poster watches only ethical porn then they surely know about the link between sex trafficking and pornography - in which case I don’t see how they could possibly be offended by me highlighting that issue to others.

“But those words WERE used, Bertrand”

Yes they were. And they shouldn’t have been. But only by about 3 or 4 people in a long thread, and definitely challenged in at least one case. Ant there have been loads of insults thrown at feminists on both threads.

This is a fascinating thread. I've been a feminist all my life. There was a long period when it took pretty low priority but it's come back with a vengeance over the last couple of years.

We seem to have come full circle. In the 70s there was no argument that porn objectified and exploited women. It was primarily men who used it in those days. I'm not sure when women stopped seeing it through that lens, I suspect the "ladette" culture might have played a part. I find it completely anomalous that some women are into porn and fail to see how incredibly detrimental to women it is.

I'm probably completely out of touch but a lot of the things young women say about porn and consent are, to me, pretty inconsistent.

I really like the feminism boards here. I lurk rather than post and I've learnt a lot, they're thought provoking and I find the women who post there to be rational and open minded.

I am not a feminist as mumsnet defines one.

But I’m ok with that.

Ah Bertrand. Are you a GoT fan?

This sums up what I want to say quite nicely.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=jIvYWUVB1Ig

It's interesting - I get why people are reluctant to use a label that still conjures up (to many people, at least) visions of hairy armpitted, dungaree wearing, no bra wearing angry women. Not many people would want to align themselves with something that is likely to invite ridicule (or worse).

But I'd bet that many of these people would be happy to say that they are a Christian but not the KKK sort; or a Muslim but not the ISIS sort; or a mum who breastfed but not the extreme attachment parent sort; or a cat lover but not the house over run with 87 rescue moggies sort etc etc etc

Henry, no one said that all women are trafficked. Some women do choose to work in this industry. But most do not. It isn't many women's lifelong dream career - circumstances and often force, put them there.
You might be super careful about the type of porn you consume, but most are not. Deep down, you know this to be true but it is easier for you to dismiss objectors to porn as being closed minded sexually, than to accept that porn is not hrlping women.

This is the side of feminism that, frankly, can fuck right off. It's a completely hypocritical movement. Feminists saying "Women can do whatever they like.....except for you, you do porn so fuck you, and you, you watch porn, so fuck you, you support women being raped and trafficked" what a load of bollocks.

I do understand this reaction.

I think the reason that women/feminists are so divided on this issue is that, for some women, it looks like:

These women are making a free choice. They are earning their own money. They are supporting themselves and their children. And they make good money doing it.

And from that perspective, it becomes easy to support it.

From the opposing perspective, it looks like:

There are still very few discourses of womanhood in which women can position themselves. One of those discourses is women as sexy/available to men for sexual gratification. We don't need to debate whether that is true or not because we know it is.

So depending on which angle you look at it from, porn, prostitution is either liberating and freedom for women, or the ultimate subjugation as it renders women completely upon their sexual desirability to men to even house, clothe and feed themselves.

I believe in equality, I just find the title "feminist" is old fashioned now, needs a rethink!

No, I'm not a Fame of Thrones fan. Not a fan of sexual violence generally, actually. But I am a bit surprised that you'd post something like that when you're objecting to a couple of people using disobliging language on the other thread.......

I think you’re being disingenuous in your use of “but”. You’re minimising what was said on the other thread.

I’m a bit surprised you can’t see it ......

Oh come on Bertrand you do it all the bloody time. Can I ask why you don't identify as a feminist? Can I ask why you think a transwoman is a woman? Can I ask why.......When you don't really want to know why? You want to say why they're wrong. And when they give an opinion you demand links and references but ignore it if people provide them.

You're well known for it. And as I said, it's a shame you continually do it because if you had a different approach, more people would listen and benefit from what you say which I usually agree with but you rub people up the wrong way.

I am not a feminist. I believe in equality. I don't believe in fighting for it from a 'female perspective'. I don't feel as defined by my womanness as some others apparently do.

Vocal feminists tend to be dickheads. The media. Internet forums etc.

I do not agree the the definition of feminism meets my perception of what it is. I'm in the majority.

I see astonishing sexism on MN directed towards me. As a successful woman with 2 sons I don't want to be a part of an oppressive culture and hate this culture.

The thread you referred to shows just how aggressive many self-declared feminists are when people disagree with them. Debate is shut down. You are called stupid, unread, ignorant etc. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

We have equality of opportunity. I don't want equality of outcome. I am an egalitarian who wants to live in a meritocracy.

I believe in a trend of innate differences in the sexes / genders. The anti-trans threads worry me. A simple example is they way that posters refer to trans men as 'penises'. "penises will be allowed in changing rooms!" etc

Feminism is not what it used to be. It's the reason it's being deserted and seen as an insult by 25% of women in the UK. The stupidity of people saying that these women are wrong, that they don't understand shows how misguided these people are. It's burying your head in the sand while a train hurtles towards you.