Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

[BertrandRussell]

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

Can a feminist not care about the Me Too movement & even find it slightly hysterical and irritating?

Sexism and gender stereotypes still rule hugely, stereotypes possibly more than a few years ago.

There's a lot of trans worry on mn purely as most of mn's members are mothers (not all I know) and have experienced, like me, how gender stereotypes can be damaging for both sexes as well as leading to confusion over children's and teens bodies mainly due to social media and the media generally.

Once you start reading about it to try to understand for your children, it's hard not to read / learn about some very disturbing issues too.

They (and me) also worry about sex protected areas, sports etc.

I've seen and experienced this professionally, up close, as well.

@Pumper

I think as it stands men get the better end of the deal.

I think we need to change the world view that men provide and women do the wifework.

I think that child baring women will always be at a disatvantage to everyone else as they will at least need to take time out for the birth etc.

But looking after children should be 50-50 between both parents. I feel the accepted view is that a mother has more right over her child than the father and I don't think that's right. So in that scenario I would be supporting men's rights.

I do think that there is still a massive problem with the gender pay gap and if you're doing the same job at the same level your pay shouldn't depend on whether you have a penis or a vagina.

There are always going to be areas of life where equality is impossible. In care work for example there will always be more women than men, as women can care for both sexes while men only their own.

I only think thing will change as we teach new generations a different way of thinking.

I hope I've answered all your questions.

But Meph and Master, that is ONE person's opinion. One feminist does not speak for all. It doesn't seem right to decry an entire, huge movement for the sake of one person's opinion. If everyone did that there would be no movements. Just a lot of individuals unable to organise and co-operate to achieve anything.

So if you don't have a problem with porn, you are in effect saying that you don't have a problrm with women bring trafficked and raped.
One reason why i'm not on here.
People are called names for not agreeing, or insulted for not agreeing with the majority, or when they give examples of threads are asked if they're sure it exsisted..

Bindel was joking. As is obvious

Get fucked was she.

Let's pretend for a second she was, if a man said the same it'd be suicide by Twitter. He'd be hung drawn and quartered. A scientist wore a "sexist" t-shirt and was vilified and there were calls for him to lose his job! If a man suggested putting women in camps, joking or otherwise he'd be fucked.

But Meph and Master, that is ONE person's opinion. One feminist does not speak for all
And yet I've never seen her called out ONCE by feminists for this view

BertrandRussell
Bindel was joking

Well she did and does wonders for the "brand" of feminism and ensuring that millions of women like me want to be associated with the label.

Tell me, was Linda Bellos also "joking" when she left her husband and son after "choosing" lesbian separatism to take her daughter to an all wimmin commune?

I called myself an equalist until the sheer weight of being treated differently for being a woman hit me:

• discouraged from doing A levels because all the girls do hair and beauty or travel and tourism.
• sexual assault and worse from being a child to 30
• refused interview for jobs I was qualified for because it was a male area and I was female
• being denied pain relief in childbirth and the aftermath
• being demoted on maternity leave
• being made redunant on maternity leave

I’m still very lucky that I’ve not in an abusive relationship, I’ve not grown up in a patriarchal culture or religion that curtails my freedom because I’m female, I’m not from a country where girls aren’t educated or killed at birth or sold to the highest bidder or sex trafficked to other countries and my husband isn’t an arse that sees the home and childcare as women’s work.

I think sometimes the realisation has to come from within based on time and experience.

@Slowtrain2dawn
I agree it’s all part of the same picture. But in only three pages we’ve had people saying they’re not a feminist because they don’t agree with the views of three high-profile feminists (one of whom has been dead 12 years) and that feminism is ok up to the point when it impinges on men’s rights.

Are we really going to make any progress here? I mean, in real life if someone says anything like that to me I just change the subject or talk to someone else.

But then I’ve been a feminist for 40 years so maybe I’ve just run out of tolerance now.

eyeswideshit you have, thank you. I agree with everything in your last post apart from this:

There are always going to be areas of life where equality is impossible. In care work for example there will always be more women than men, as women can care for both sexes while men only their own.

...but I can appreciate that we can agree to disagree. Thanks for your time

MrMeSeeks

So if you don't have a problem with porn, you are in effect saying that you don't have a problrm with women bring trafficked and raped.
One reason why i'm not on here.
People are called names for not agreeing, or insulted for not agreeing with the majority, or when they give examples of threads are asked if they're sure it exsisted..

I’ve just posted a link that explains why watching porn (assuming you’re not going out of your way to watch ethical porn) supports sex trafficking.

Oh and another one of the many many reasons I'm not a feminist by modern definition. The use of "menz"

It's not clever. It's not edgy. It just makes the user look a pathetic sheep like cunt to be honest.

@Pumper and thanks for the discussion without the hate and insults that sometimes get thrown about. I'll be the first to admit that my views are forever changing and evolving. A couple of years ago I was totally against feminism and all it stood for and couldn't see the inequality that women face everyday. I see know how wrong I was now. I just don't want to put blinkers on and miss all the other inequality in the world by only focusing on me as a woman.

Mr how can you be okay with porn and claim to care about women being trafficked? Do you genuinely believe that all the women in the porn industry are there of their own free will - not coerced either by circumstance or force?
While I'm sure that some women may choose it, many do not and it is really hard to tell which kind of porn you are viewing. And honestly, I don't believe many men care to look too closely when choosing!

araiwa
People are telling feminists why they dont want to be called a feminist and instead of listening to their reasons, they will be told that they are wrong and why. This is why this thread will end up showcasing why people avoid calling themselves feminists

Ooops, sorry Feminists, I meant .... would hate to trigger your anxiety

Up until about 10years ago I probably would have said no, I thought the fight had been won.
I believed I was equal to any man and I didn’t believe I needed a group of extremist harridans ( sorry) to support me in this
How wrong I was, I wasn’t a Feminist because I didn’t know what one was and I’m very ashamed to say I believed the lazy stereotypes.
Now I would say yes I am a Feminist

I agree. I can't stand the patronising use of the word 'Menz' , beloved by some feminists.
I want to promote equality for all. The underachievement of boys worries me. As it does for most educators. I think it is wrong to promote women's rights to the extent that you lose sight of the needs of all groups in society.
I dislike the exclusive nature of the feminist boards on here. They chase away any real debate over lots of important issues.

I’ve just posted a link that explains why watching porn (assuming you’re not going out of your way to watch ethical porn)
How do you know what porn other posters watch?
Straight away it's porns wrong, you're etc

The trouble with saying feminism is about equality is that pretty much every political position uses the word 'equality' and they all mean different things by it. Communism and Libertarianism are both about 'equality'. Hell even the Jim Crow laws were about being "separate, but equal". It means whatever the speaker wants it to mean.

It's fairly clear that feminism is split along the same authoritarian/liberal, socialist/free market lines as all politics to the point that the word doesn't have any meaning beyond 'activist'. People tend to talk about MY feminism, which is fine when you take that as feminism just meaning politics.

The strange thing is that by labeling this huge amount of opposing views as one monolithic block of feminism it seems to be self-othering all these issues as women's issues and makes it look like male politics is the default and feminism is a side issue. And obviously without the word or the attempt to categorise as feminist women's politics are exactly the same as men's.

MrMeSeeks I didn’t - I put in the qualifier ‘ethical porn’ for that reason.

thetallesttree

That's a fair point - and if you read the comments underneath, a fair few calling feminists disagreed with her.

But do you? Did any of the other professional feminists who shared the platform of a global news source? I've seen the scorn and derision heaped on liberal feminists in this site; why shouldn't myself and others believe that, really, Bindel represents the real feminism that others don't dare display?

I speak up when someone who ostensibly shares my politics says something disgusting or extreme; I don't tolerate antisemitism from socialists, racism from nationalists or calls for the suppression of feminism from genuine egalitarians. I don't think a broad church should include extremists or hate preachers.

And I’m ok with championing women I think that’s a great thing to do. You can help someone without pushing other people down after all. I know so many excellent women who been held back because of other people’s perceptions of what they think women are or should be.

CandlesAndIncense

If you believe that the sexes are equal and women deserve equality with men then you are a feminist, whether you use the label or not

I do agree that the sexes (and all human beings are equal). However I will respectfully ask you not to use that label on me. Your label is less important than making a difference to the lives of oppressed people. You have allowed your label to be hijacked by your batshit crazy wing that thinks giving some protection and rights to tiny tiny tiny percentage of transgender people means that I should be frothing at the mouth at the thought of a person who might have a penis using a locked cubicle next to me or putting on make-up standing next to me at a mirror.

The "brand" of feminism is fucked. You've only got yourselves to blame.

This thread reminds me of the trans threads where someone comes on and tells everyone they’re mean and then disappears.

Or say stuff like this:

People are called names for not agreeing, or insulted for not agreeing with the majority

without citing any examples of where people who disagree with the OP have been called names or insulted.

I dislike the exclusive nature of the feminist boards on here. They chase away any real debate over lots of important issues.

Ah - I wouldn't let that stop me. It's all actually tied up in the same types of things. It's having a boy that's opened my eyes to many things. The way masculinity, culture, stereotypes, the patriarchy, institutionalised misogyny affects young boys. Ultimately it leads to how this affects young men. Which either adds to the issues or means they become 'allies' or are actually disadvantaged themselves in a variety of ways. (For me, a reason why there are so many trahs identifying males is due to the way young boys are affected by ott masculinity. Which many have written honestly about. Similar things are currently starting to affect young lesbian women).

I've raised this on the feminist boards (the boys issue) as now quite a 'rad fem type' feminist as for me it's all part of the same issue.