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Topshop gender neutral changing rooms part 2

(453 Posts)
BahHumbygge Thu 09-Nov-17 16:03:00

Part 1 here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3080957-To-alert-you-to-the-fact-that-Topshop-just-changed-its-policy-to-let-men-into-the-womens-changing-rooms

sagamartha Thu 09-Nov-17 16:05:33

*Unlike other posters, I would not except a post-op
transwomen in my space*

But you would accept that legally, under the Gender recognition Act 2004, that if that person has a GRC, they have a legal right to be there and can't be discriminated against?

Datun Thu 09-Nov-17 16:08:18

Yes sagamartha, of course.

BatShite Thu 09-Nov-17 16:10:06

Still not understanding how ending sex segregation is progressive. Progressive would be to keep sex segregation but add a separate area for those whos 'gender' changes daily, or who feel 'trapped in the wrong body'. Surely that is the best solution all round.

Makes not one bit of sex to say we need sex segregation, but that sex segregated areas should not be segregated by sex.

BumpowderSneezeonAndSnot Thu 09-Nov-17 16:10:43

Being female is a protected characteristic under the equality act. If you start allowing men in skirts to say they're women where will it end? Can I say I'm black? Can I say I'm gay? How can people decry Rachel dolezal but support this Travis man?

Babieseverywhere Thu 09-Nov-17 16:11:10

I have one preteen girl in my house, who as of today will no longer be going to Top Shop on her own or with her friends.

Top shop can do what they like with their changing rooms but Travis and his friends will not be spending enough to cover the losses that will now result as the pre teen and teen girl market vote with their feet and shop elsewhere.

Target in America did a similar thing, opening up the women's bathrooms and changing rooms to men.

Two things happened.

1.Target profits plumetted as women and girls shop elsewhere.

2.The number of offences against women in Target bathrooms and changing rooms increased significantly.

Top shop is likely to have the same issues. Not that I care. Topshop have thrown women and girls under the bus because of three tweets from one man.

BatShite Thu 09-Nov-17 16:11:13

And yes, we do need sex segregation. As people with penises commit nearly all sexual crime. Against people with vaginas, and also against other people with penises. The solution is not to just mix people with penises and people with vaginas together and hope for the best.

PricklyBall Thu 09-Nov-17 16:14:34

I want to pick up on the undertone in some of the posts on the last thread of "you're all man-hating paranoics who think everyone with a penis is about to jump out and rape you".

Of course no-one thinks all men are sexual predators. But a hell of a lot of them are - and, newsflash, they don't come with the mark of cain on their foreheads for us to distinguish them from the nice decent men. And we know (see links upthread for instance about a guy who sexually assaulted several teens in a Manchester branch of Asda while disguised as a security guard) that sex offenders will go to extraordinary lengths to gain access to victims. Pretending - note pretending - to be trans is not going to be much of a stretch.

Okay, let's look at what we do know, in terms of numbers.

90% of violent offenders in the British prison system are male.
98% of sex offenders in the British prison system are male.

So, what proportion of the male population do we have to be worried about? Reputable, peer reviewed studies (google the work of David Lisak for instance) suggest that possibly about 1 in 18 men will admit to having carried out behaviours ( e.g. having sex with a woman who said no, but using your body weight to restrain her) which meet the legal definition of rape. If you repeat the questionnaires actually using the word "rape" 1 in 20 men will admit to it.

That's a lot of men. That's why we have sex-segregated spaces where women are vulnerable - changing rooms, locker rooms, hospital wards, prisons.

The worry here is not the majority of perfectly nice transwomen who have dysphoria, are trying to make the best of a bad hand life has dealt them and just want to get on with life quietly. The problem is the proposed legislation is a pile of shit which will effectively outlaw single sex spaces, allowing any male bodied person who fancies it - whether suffering from genuine gender dysphoria, an attention seeking day-tripper like Travis, or a sexual predator - entry to any and all single sex spaces.

And the thing is at the moment, trans people who want legitimately to be counted as "feminine gendered" for purposes like going into women's toilets can do so, by getting a GRC. There are also, in the current legislation, exceptions to allow for where biological sex matters.

However if the new law goes through, there will be no exceptions. Not on hospital wards, not on closed mental health wards, not in rape crisis centres, not in prisons (remember women in the criminal justice system are much more likely to have been victims of child abuse, child sexual abuse, domestic violence, sexual violence, than women in the general population - and the vast majority of women in prison are not there for violent offences, they are there for drug and property crimes).

sagamartha Thu 09-Nov-17 16:14:43

In case people are interested in GRC certificates and how many have been issued - the Government keeps stats

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/tribunals-and-gender-recognitions-certificates-statistics-quarterly-january-to-march-2017-and-2016-to-2017

From that:

56 were granted from Jan to March 2017
75% MTF
25% FTM

So that's 56 in a quarter - about 250 per year...

Datun Thu 09-Nov-17 16:16:15

@2018babyonboard

The key to solving hate is educating not resisting’

This isn’t hate ffs. This is protecting women’s rights.

The only reason any woman can post on here is because women have resisted.

The only reason you have a voice is because women have resisted.

The only reason women have public toilets and female changing rooms is because women have resisted.

The only reason you can work, be educated and vote is because women have resisted.

The only reason you are not the legal property a man is because women have resisted.

The only reason it took FIFTEEN YEARS for women to have rape within marriage considered illegal in 1992, is because women have resisted.

And now you want to tell me that the legal and cultural definition of the very word woman is to be changed to include men, because a handful of men say so!

Sorry, but the answer is no.

CarrieBlue Thu 09-Nov-17 16:16:20

Babieseverywhere - I wouldn’t trust Breitbart links, snopes says it’s a false claim
www.snopes.com/targets-stock-transgender-bathroom-policy/

sagamartha Thu 09-Nov-17 16:17:53

And now you want to tell me that the legal and cultural definition of the very word woman is to be changed to include men, because a handful of men say so

Hasn't that already changed with the Gender Recognition Act 2004?

General

(1)Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).

Sentimentallentil Thu 09-Nov-17 16:18:41

The reason transgender people are at risk in the men’s toilets is because of our societies strict and oppressive gender norms, if we did manage to break down gender there would be no risk because everybody would be free to dress and express themselves exactly as they like no matter what’s under their pants.

This it’s why it’s so sad and frustrating, why are they fighting us??? Imagine what we could achieve if we joined forces to fight gender.
Travis, I would love to stand by your side and fight for you to not be stared at if that’s what you want, to make men in dresses so common place no one flinches, but please stop and think what you are doing. You are not a woman and that’s ok, but I am and I am opressed because of my sex, please let me name that and allow me to speak about that without you trying to shut me up.

Babieseverywhere Thu 09-Nov-17 16:20:42

Carrie The article I linked too, stated that Target denies that the nationwide boycott Target campaign due to allowing men in the women's bathroom/changing room.

Target may deny it all they want but their profits are at 2014 level and still falling and the boycott Target campaign is going strong.

Target might feel that customers are not shopping at their stores because of another reason but occam razor says it is the men in the bathroom issue.

Datun Thu 09-Nov-17 16:21:20

Yes sagamartha and I profoundly disagree with it and I’m still saying no.

And you know full well that I would not have said no 10 years ago. And you know why.

It’s no good blaming women for how transactivists have fucked it up.

Datun Thu 09-Nov-17 16:22:35

Yes, as far as I know, Target have frantically tried to deny that was the reason. But it started very next day, didn’t it?

CarrieBlue Thu 09-Nov-17 16:24:34

Still know which source I’d trust to tell the truth and it isn’t Breitbart

Babieseverywhere Thu 09-Nov-17 16:25:51

Yes, profits dropped the moment men were allowed in women's space at Target.

Well, we can watch to see if Top shop profits fall as of today, can't we.

AnnabellaH Thu 09-Nov-17 16:26:10

This is the bullshit that makes me terrified for the future of any daughters, nieces, grandaughters I may have. What the fuck was the point in fighting for our rights for centuries to have them wiped out by a small, scarily warped proportion of generation whatever.

He doesn't need access to the changing rooms - he needs to fuck off... and learn some fashion sense.

Babieseverywhere Thu 09-Nov-17 16:26:56

Carrie Feel free to Google yourself there are many articles on many papers in this Target issue...you find one you trust and read it smile

sagamartha Thu 09-Nov-17 16:28:43

TBF - Top Shop profits are already falling

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40194955

AnnabellaH Thu 09-Nov-17 16:28:52

This is a last whim by the Arcadia group to be seen as relevant in their only surviving market. Evans, Wallace, Burtons, DPs were all flopping so hard they merged them in to the one store on most highstreets. Topshop is still being wiped out by Primark.

pinkdonkey Thu 09-Nov-17 16:32:52

I'm confused I didn't realise that clothes shops segregated changing rooms by gender, the supermarket clothes areas certainly don't, infact I don't think I've ever been in a clothes shop where the changing rooms are segregated.

2018babyonboard Thu 09-Nov-17 16:33:27

So let’s just get this clear. Men have more rights than woman and woman are so oppressed in society...

But you think men are changing to and pretending to be woman because they want to steal woman’s rights? The same rights that are so oppressed and distorted that woman have to have extra protection from men?

Yes there are bad people in the world, men and (shock horror) woman too. As woman we need to stop pulling the victim card at all opportunities and I say that as someone who’s been sexually assaulted, my male attacker got me in broad daylight on a main road outside of my front door - should I now protest for that space to be woman only? Of course not, because the issue is much bigger than that.

Everyone has a right not to be discriminated against whether or not you agree with their lifestyle choices or think you know what’s going on in their head.

Clearly some people have their views that these are just men in dresses that shouldn’t be able to be in our space, you’re entitled to your opinion, I hope one day you will meet a trans person and hear their story and maybe think differently.

woman11017 Thu 09-Nov-17 16:33:35

Saw this on twitter:

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