Constructive dismissal grounds

[Jobque]

Hi I just want some advice on this.

I have worked for my company for a long time and I was promoted into my current job without interview by a previous manager (who doesn’t work there anymore).

The job has changed as the company has changed over the years and new management. I am a manager of a team and told my managers a year ago I felt swamped at work. My team constantly interrupt me all day asking questions and it’s irritating. I asked to drop my hours and they did eventually let me but this meant I had to let someone else train up in parts of my job for when I am not there. I don’t really get on with them, they think they are better than me at my job so I just let them do their thing on their day and I do mine on my day. I don’t really like other people being involved in my job, I don’t think they can do it as well as I can but it’s good to have someone to delegate all the bits of the job I don’t like to.

I think things are fine as they are, but there has been so many changes to how we work now and I feel pushed out. I’ve kept my head down and not really got too involved but it annoys me they don’t consult with me with the decisions.

work are doing a restructure and I’ve been told that they want me doing some different things at work. It’s a bit of a different job title but a lot of the same things I’ve been doing anyway, same pay, same hours etc. I can do the job but I don’t like these changes they seem boring. I get why they are doing it, they say it’s more efficient use of my time as I am experienced but ideally I want to work less hours (cut another day a week) and stay in the same role. It also means the person I don’t get on with is going to get more responsibility and take over some of the stuff I do. My manager says I am doing too many basic jobs and as a manager I need to be contributing more to making the place run better. I do a lot of the basic jobs when we are short staffed but I just don’t think they pay me enough to step up to this new level. They asked me to trial the job I said no.

I said I don’t want the job so said I would leave. They said there is no other job at my level, just the one they want me to do but if I resign I could still come back in a different job (that is also boring) on the less hours I want, less responsibilities but with less pay, and I don’t want that one either and doesn’t seem fair. I want to keep my current job and stay on my pay level.

I told them this sounds like constructive dismissal do you think I have a case?

[Note from MNHQ - OP confirmed later on that this is a reverse - while we don't exactly encourage this kind of thing, we appreciate that posters sometimes do things this way to gain a different perspective, which we could probably all do with from time to time.]

Ok fine if it’s not constructive dismissal loads of people have said this I get it now. I got to delay things saying I’m thinking about what to do so now I need a plan.

I think OP you've fallen into the trap of forgetting that the point of a business is to make as much profit as possible. Work should be done in the most efficient way it can.

Your role is a small cog in a bigger machine. It doesn't exist in a vacuum and it can't continue the way it is just because that's how it's been if it isn't efficient or delivering the best results.

You need to see the bigger picture. Understand the company's goals and how your role fits into delivering them, and what you can do to improve your performance and that of your team.

Perhaps you need a fresh start elsewhere as you do seem to.have developed rather a negative attitude to your current job.

Find a job you like

I would suggest you grab the option that is offered.

From your own words you are not doing your current role effectively and are gravitating to team level tasks at the expense of your managerial responsibilities.

As others have said, you could easily be put on performance management and ultimately let go - as in sacked not made redundant.

However performance management is a horrible,paperwork intensive business for both manager and employee.

It feels as if there are specialised aspects of the role that you are good at, and therefore they are positioning you to do that. Parts of it may be boring - parts of most jobs are boring, it's one of the reasons it's called work and not leisure- but I suggest you talk to your manager about the role with an open mind to understand exactly what it entails.

I once had a manager who said her job became much easier once she understood it was part of her role to be interrupted by her staff.

You can't usually pick and choose the bits of your job you like and ignore the other things you're asked to do. If I were managing someone who forgot things I asked but was doing their team's work, I would be unimpressed.

You know the team's tasks can be done more quickly, so your role is to tell them and give them a goal that within 3 months or 6 months, they should be achieving those times - you shouldn't be doing it yourself when you have been given other priorities. This might mean sometimes things are a bit delayed, but that demonstrates what happens with fewer staff, and gives you a stronger case for getting a replacement.

I would guess that going by this thread, you might need to work on your communication and delegation skills.

Businesses change, work changes. If you can't change with it, you shouldn't be in thst role. Yes, if they think you're not performing, they should give you that feedback, but you need to be open to hearing it and acting on it, and I don't know if you are. It doesn't sound like you're really the right fit for the role.

But it's not constructive dismissal.

Gosh you are being hard work.
They are having a reorganisation and moving you away from all the people you are complaining about on the same money.
I'd read the room if I were you.

No - giving you tasks you don't want to do because you find them boring is not constructive dismissal

Take their offer or look elsewhere, but you need to realise the world doesn’t revolve around you, jobs aren’t about just doing the parts you fancy

@rookiemere gives good advice. They were clearly testing the waters with you and you've told them that you will go down an antagonist route ie constructive dismissal
I'd have another meeting and tell them you'd be prepared to take a different role and perhaps think about if there's elements of what they've offered that would work for you and focus on positives and perhaps less on the negatives. See if you can make some suggestions that would make it less boring?
Ultimately it's about avoiding a performance management process

I know that I am repeating things that lots of people have already said (apologies to the other folks), and that I am going to say what you don't want to hear (that is not being mean, it is being honest)...

(a) It is not your place to come up with a plan. Your employers have given you the only plan that is happening. You either get with the programme or you will be booted out with nothing. Quite possiblky including no reference.
(b) You seem not to really understand this, but you work for them. They do not work for you! What you like or think about the work, the workplace, your managers, and especially your performance, are entirely irrelevant.
(c) You appear to have spent a very long time pissing them off, and they have finally snapped/ I will lay bets that something has just recently broken the camels back and they have decided that enough is enough. They have in place an excellent employee who does the job well and doesn't piss them off (and everything you have said about her in slagging her off actually says she is good at managing!) so replacing you is a doddle.
(d) You do not go to work as a manager to be friends with people. It's not a popularity contest. You are letting every aspect of good management slide and critiucisng those who actually do manage.

and really, really important, on top of all that...

(e) they are being kinder to you than the vast majority of employers would be. In many places you would have been out of the door a very long time ago. Whether that ommission is due to slack management which they have now stepped up for, or whether they have simply let things slide because they don't like being unkind, that era is now over. Most places would have sacked you by now. And the writing is very largely written on the wall - comply with what they are telling you or they will let you go with nothing.

If you genuinely want another plan, then I'll provide one for you. Resign now. Because at the rate you are going you will find it hard to get another job when you are dismissed, and with a poor reference if any reference. Because that is a real prospect now. You stupidly threatened them without knowing that the threat was laughable - you declared war and told them you would be looking at a tribunal. That is the fastest way to an absolutely slam dunk dismissal.

I was the colleague in your situation. Someone who had done the job for years and felt entitled to get what they wanted because of that.

You said yourself you delegate things you don't like. You resent her changing things. You sound difficult and complain she's 'brown nosing' (hate that phrase).

I worked hard, wanted to try new ideas that worked and made things run better. I did my share of the boring jobs but I got resentful she gave me the things she didn't want to do but didn't accept I was working hard.

It was so hard working with someone like that!

They asked me what I thought would happen if I turned down all the things they are offering and I said it’s constructive dismissal so that’s why I came here to ask.
Well, you’ve marked your card good and proper, op 🤦‍♀️

They haven’t got rid of me because they know I know too much! I have been here a long time and I know a lot of things other people don’t know how to do. They say that when I am on holiday it’s stressful cos people don’t know how to do my job doesn’t this prove I am valuable?

Their idea was to show other people how to do my job so I can have time off or work less hours so I did, then they have used this against me to take my job away.

I told them to show me the other alternative job on the less pay and I will think about it. I think they will take out all the stuff I don’t like from the job they did offer me but take away the manager title and then fob me off with less pay and I am just angry they are getting away with doing this to me. I’ve worked here a long time and that should count for something.

What do you want , less responsibility for the same pay based on your time with the company?

The thing is you need to complete the tasks detailed in your job description, not just do the tasks that you prefer and delegate the ones you don't like to somebody else. That's not how a job description works.

It doesn't work like this either does it?

Nope - just because you've worked somewhere a long time, doesn't mean you get to decide how to run things, or to cherry pick what aspects of the job you want to do and enjoy doing.

Honestly your entitlement is outstanding, that's why so many people think this is a reverse.

I run a business, and we have people like you - they just want to do what they've always done and push back and resist change. and yes, we get rid of them!

In fact, they could potentially sack you for Insubordination. I'd be performance managing you out the business right away!!

Here are examples of what insubordination can include:

• Refusing to follow reasonable instructions or orders from a manager or supervisor without valid justification.
• Ignoring or defying company policies or procedures deliberately.
• Failing to perform duties assigned by management as part of the employee’s role.
• Using disrespectful or abusive language towards supervisors or managers.
• Undermining management decisions or openly challenging authority in a disruptive manner.
• Refusing to cooperate with colleagues or management, such as failing to share necessary work information.
• Deliberate non-compliance with health and safety regulations.
• Excessive or repeated lateness or absenteeism without explanation.
• Refusing to attend mandatory meetings, training, or appraisals without valid reasons.
• Behaving in a hostile or aggressive manner towards supervisors or colleagues.
• Sabotaging work processes or outcomes intentionally to resist management directives.

The specific context and severity of the behavior can determine whether it's classified as minor misconduct, serious misconduct, or gross misconduct.

The OP is a hopeless cause. There is no point to this thread at all now. The employer is "getting away with it" because the OP is asking for it, but refuses to see reality.

I’m genuinely rather appalled and bemused at your lack of personal insight op. You seem to feel you’re invaluable and should be able to pick and chose. Whilst simultaneously displaying some of the poorest and ineffectual employee behaviours, and lacking any understanding on why they wish to remove you completely and give the other person the job and have been steadily removing all management responsibilities from you.

you sound like you’re 12 years old. With all the it’s boring, and I know too much and I just want to be a manager nonsense.

They say that when I am on holiday it’s stressful cos people don’t know how to do my job doesn’t this prove I am valuable

Good god NO

It proves you can do stuff and they need to expand training but it absolutely does NOT prove that you're valuable

Patently you're NOT valuable as they are , as kindly as they can, easing you out of the elements of your role that you're shit at, and moving you to a more limited role to encompass only the limited amount of work which you ARE able to cope with

My company would manage you out.

You're very lucky that your employer is being so generous to you

I was just reading this thinking the exact same!!
If this is real, OP sounds like they are a toddler stamping their feet to try and get what they want.

It doesn't sound to me like OP is doing a very good job of their role and are lucky to still have a job at all in fairness!!

@Jobque They haven’t got rid of me because they know I know too much! I have been here a long time and I know a lot of things other people don’t know how to do. They say that when I am on holiday it’s stressful cos people don’t know how to do my job doesn’t this prove I am valuable?

No, it proves you use knowledge as power. A good manager has trained and developed their staff so when they are on leave everything runs smoothly.

Out of interest what is the part of the job you have avoided ?

I’m upset and this is all new to me and not what I am used to. Been here for years just getting on with it. I used to get on with my manager but all this has made me think it’s all been fake niceness and lulling me into a false sense of security I was not expecting this and it’s a shock.

There are lots things I don’t want to do. It’s a boring job working on my own and I won’t be in the mix of all the interesting things that go on and socialising with the team during the day. It might be the same money but it’s like a demotion. They want me just ticking boxes and making reports and checking things which anyone could do.

Knowledge is power to me?

I have a contract with my title but I never had a job description, not many people did from years back, this is why they are doing the restructure to make proper job descriptions for everyone for the first time. Seems like a waste of time to me just let us all get on with it

Sigh.

Can I seriously suggest that you go back and carefully read all the responses? Because there really isn't anyuthing new to say, and you are not hearing anything you are being told - but us or by your employer.