Constructive dismissal grounds

[Jobque]

Hi I just want some advice on this.

I have worked for my company for a long time and I was promoted into my current job without interview by a previous manager (who doesn’t work there anymore).

The job has changed as the company has changed over the years and new management. I am a manager of a team and told my managers a year ago I felt swamped at work. My team constantly interrupt me all day asking questions and it’s irritating. I asked to drop my hours and they did eventually let me but this meant I had to let someone else train up in parts of my job for when I am not there. I don’t really get on with them, they think they are better than me at my job so I just let them do their thing on their day and I do mine on my day. I don’t really like other people being involved in my job, I don’t think they can do it as well as I can but it’s good to have someone to delegate all the bits of the job I don’t like to.

I think things are fine as they are, but there has been so many changes to how we work now and I feel pushed out. I’ve kept my head down and not really got too involved but it annoys me they don’t consult with me with the decisions.

work are doing a restructure and I’ve been told that they want me doing some different things at work. It’s a bit of a different job title but a lot of the same things I’ve been doing anyway, same pay, same hours etc. I can do the job but I don’t like these changes they seem boring. I get why they are doing it, they say it’s more efficient use of my time as I am experienced but ideally I want to work less hours (cut another day a week) and stay in the same role. It also means the person I don’t get on with is going to get more responsibility and take over some of the stuff I do. My manager says I am doing too many basic jobs and as a manager I need to be contributing more to making the place run better. I do a lot of the basic jobs when we are short staffed but I just don’t think they pay me enough to step up to this new level. They asked me to trial the job I said no.

I said I don’t want the job so said I would leave. They said there is no other job at my level, just the one they want me to do but if I resign I could still come back in a different job (that is also boring) on the less hours I want, less responsibilities but with less pay, and I don’t want that one either and doesn’t seem fair. I want to keep my current job and stay on my pay level.

I told them this sounds like constructive dismissal do you think I have a case?

[Note from MNHQ - OP confirmed later on that this is a reverse - while we don't exactly encourage this kind of thing, we appreciate that posters sometimes do things this way to gain a different perspective, which we could probably all do with from time to time.]

Can I ask if you are ND? You don’t have to answer that of course, but your posts remind me very much of someone I have managed previously who was ND and we found we had to explain the changes in her role in a different way, so it made more sense to her. She required a different management approach.

That aside, I would say that your view is quite fixed and you seem unable to grasp the company’s point of view. Roles and duties change over time and that is normal and allowed. If your company has introduced new systems for instance, it is reasonable to expect that your team will be more efficient and that staff don’t necessarily need to be replaced. You cannot expect to be able to do just the bits of the job you like and leave the rest to someone else. I also question how this is set up-you seem to refer to them as more junior and that their purpose is there to help you. But if it is a job share, you are equal. And you should be communicating more.

My advice would be to start thinking less about whether you are being constructively dismissed (you’re not) and be more receptive to the changes they want you to make. You cannot be paid as a manager and yet do the job of your team members. Even if you are ‘short staffed’, you need to find ways for your team to be more efficient. And forgetting to do things that you have been asked to do is a big issue.

I think the company has grounds to start performance managing you to be honest. Your company has been very generous towards you so far. You have not been wronged, you are just not listening and paying attention to the changes and what is required of you now. That is a you issue, not a company issue.

They didn’t give you a person to help with your job, you job share op. You’re acting like they work for you?

I didn't think they'd do it or get involved.

Do you not see that you've created this situation yourself? You want a management salary but you don't want to support your team. You wanted to reduce you hours, but refuse to do key parts of your job. You treat the person who does do your job with disdain. You don't develop your team by training them, as you insist on doing their jobs for them. Why on earth do you think you deserve a more interesting role when you appear to have consistently avoided managing anything for years.

Constructive dismissal is a high bar. Plus you have actually to leave before you can make a claim for it.

If your post is no longer there is it more like redundancy terms you're looking for?

You sound quite obstructive and that your employer is there for your convenience.
I don't think this is anywhere near the threshold for constructive dismissal, though they may be glad to see the back of you if you come across as this prickly at work 😬

They haven’t offered me redundancy. The title is not there now but the jobs will all be split up between me and others. Should they be offering me redundancy?

I don’t job share, I am senior to the person who covers my work and this is the other thing my manager said is that it’s not fair for them as they are paid less. I’m not stupid I know they have been complaining about me but I suppose I did let bits of the job go to someone else and they like doing it I’m just so pissed off.

I just say what I think and that’s just who I am.

I don’t like all this corporate crap since these managers came in, and changing the place, don’t see the need for it all. They just want to use loads of posh words and spend far too much time making up processes that people don’t follow.

For goodness sake op, if this is real then just grow up. You don’t have a right to an interesting job, if you find this one ‘boring’ then go find a different one. Roles change, as do companies and teams. Just get over yourself already. “I just say what I think”: in other words you are rude and belligerent and expect to get away with it. If you worked for me you’d have never passed probation with that kind of shitty attitude.

Is this a reverse and you are this persons manager? It just doesn't read quite right.

Unfortunately managers who spout crap are the ones calling the shots here.
So if they haven't talked about redundancy then they are clearly going down the road of minor changes to JD.
Just ask for a .meeting with HR. Bring a copy of the old JD and the new one. Ask them to clarify if this is a change to JD.
Changes to job descriptions are permitted as long as they are reasonable. You think they are not being reasonable, they presumably think they are. So sit down with HR and explain why you think these particular changes are unreasonable. It may help if you accept some of the changes and focus on the ones that are really difficult for you. If you have an alternative suggestion then propose it. My advice is do not make this suggestion that nothing changes. Come up with something.
Then ask HR what happens if you do not accept the changes.
Ultimately discussing it with them is what you need to do. If you have a union you can talk to them about it

Absolutely not constructive dismissal. From what you've said it sounds like a lot of the problems come from you. As a manager you need to manage interruptions from staff better. You don't get on with your colleague. Also you want less work but don't want your colleague doing it, who is going to do it.

Sorry you sound like an extremely awkward person to work with and manage

@Whyherewego thanks. I have done this. There is one main thing in the job description that I totally hate and don’t want to do but I know I don’t have a leg to stand on refusing to do it as it’s in my contract, and I’ve avoided doing it up till now just by keeping my head down. I have been trying to delay this whole thing happening it just feels like they want rid of me. I’ve not been perfomanced managed and they didn’t say this either but I suppose cos I am meant to move to the new job. I’m not in a union.

This

I've avoided doing it up till now just by keeping my head down.

I think you've answered your own question. You can't claim constructive dismissal if you haven't been doing your own job.

In my title I manage people they want to move me to manage different things not related to managing people and it makes
me feel like it’s a demotion

From what you say in your opening post, you don't manage , you duck out of managing

well shouldn’t they performance manager me in this job and then give me the chance to make changes rather than doing this?

If the job won't exist anymore soon enough then it's pointless.

They could do that

They've chosen not to

My guess is that you're not actually doing the job well (you avoid elements of it) so they are trying to slot you into a role which they feel you MIGHT be able to do

If you worked for me, I'd manage you out

I think your employers are being very generous

But you seem totally reluctant to change and totally disrespectful to your managers. Yes it's difficult when you don't like the changes being made at work. But my opinion is that you need to be much more co-operative and open to the changes taking place and willing to work with others.

If this attitude comes over at work you're lucky to be still in a job.

Unfortunately if that is in your contract then you have no grounds to refuse it in your JD. You can negotiate and try to remove it but you are on shaky ground rights wise so it's simply an ask.
If you've not been performance managed to date then that is good really. Ask them what happens if you don't accept the change, they may offer you redundancy. And it may be in your interest to accept

You are only ever as good as your team!

This sounds absolutely absurd to me.

You have a job with responsibilities and objectives, you’ve already stated you’re not doing some of those things… you sound like you’ve become a defacto manager and are not actually moving up and growing strategically into your role.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. A bigger title means more responsibility, more responsibility does not mean only doing the bits you like or continuing to do the basic/easy stuff, with those things come more money.

YABVVVU IMO. Sounds like performance management wouldn’t be far away regardless…

I’m not sure what a defacto manager is. I don’t believe in micromanaging people so they just get on with their work on their own and I manage all their time off and answer any questions or help with problems. I am the person they all come to. I had to let them train up someone else to do jobs as I wanted to cut my hours, this is fine but she is always wanting to change stuff like give them a job schedule and monitor their work and I think this annoys people so I need to stay to protect them from the changes!. I like being around my team it’s sociable atmosphere and the new role means I won’t get to see everyone as much.

I am always getting it in the neck from upper managers about how I do the holidays and too much overtime and they keep threatening to take this off me, they need to recruit more staff so not my problem? They don’t let me do interviews anymore either but I don’t know why and it upsets me. They have taken loads of jobs off me so I’ve been pissed off for ages I just didn’t say anything.

They asked me what I thought would happen if I turned down all the things they are offering and I said it’s constructive dismissal so that’s why I came here to ask.

They asked me what I thought would happen if I turned down all the things they are offering and I said it’s constructive dismissal so that’s why I came here to ask

It's not CD