My employer's attitude to staying on unpaid

[Pistachiovillian]

I have been at this company since the beginning of February so not long, and I am still on probation.

I work as a Case Manager which is a fancy way of saying I sort out paperwork that's been sent by various people to/within our company, but all to do with one specific thing. It's an okay job, okay pay, if a bit boring.

Part of the role (I'd say 10-20% depending on the day) is answering calls from people wanting to access our service.

Anyway several times now, I've been stuck on one of these calls (they're long, requiring a clinical assessment which takes roughly 30 minutes but sometimes up to an hour) and stayed behind. One such call, last week, I took at one minute to the hour I was meant to finish at, and left an hour late.

When I first started, I asked in the work Teams chat what the protocol was for when we had this happen, do we email manager, fill in a form, just leave early/come in later-what?

My manager sent me a private message saying that because they're so flexible generally with appointments and such things, and because It's so rare that anyone has to stay behind for a call, they don't really do anything about this.

As for it being rare, I had that aforementioned hour, and then I've also had to stay behind half an hour again for the same reason yesterday. So I don't feel this is that rare.

It is true that they're flexible with appointments, in the sense that I had a hospital appointment to attend not long after I started, unexpectedly and they were absolutely fine with me leaving in the middle of the day to go to it-however I did have to make up the hours that I had missed!

They have said I can take the hour back. I have not yet spoken to anyone about the half hour as it was only yesterday.

I let my manager know about the hour the day after it happened and said I'd leave earlier/come in later on whatever day was best for her. She said she'd look at when was best for me to be MIA for an hour.

That was Friday-not got back to me yet.

If it was the odd 'one off' I'd not mind. However I don't think It's fair to 'flexibly' work lots of half hours/twenty minutes'/ whatever because we're stuck on calls, for free, continuously? That will soon add up to several hours for free? I've been very passive in my work life and worked lots of hours for free in the past and I am not willing to be a 'people pleaser' any longer at this stage in life.

WWYD here? My idea is to message manager again and say that I am now owed 1 hour thirty minutes and to let me know when I should take it back. But given what she said about them not really doing anything with this type of thing, and me not wanting to annoy anyone as I am fairly new/still on probation, I am not sure.

I may re-post this in chat for traffic but I think here is most appropriate for now.

I'd let them know that you're finishing 90 minutes early one day and then just go from there. If she says it's inconvenient ask for a day to be agreed at that moment that's convenient. Open your diary and say "Okay, when would be better?" If she refuses to set a date then tell her that you need to know in order to organise your workload or is she happy for you to just take the time on a date that works.

Make it clear that you will not take no for an answer and do not let it go. Or they will come to expect it.

Some people seriously need to learn how to read?! OP stated in original post that when she needed time off she had to make it up! NOT flexible and I’d 100% be keeping track of anything extra I do, perhaps email manager weekly if you’ve had to work over, and then yeah, when you need the time back you’ve already done the time etc and take it off your list! Keep track of dates and time of anything owed in an excel spreadsheet or something.
ive worked for far too many companies who are happy for you to do ALL the unpaid overtime but not happy to help you back out! Don’t do it, work to live not live to work!?!!!

I think this company has sold you a bit of a lie, and they’re not really as flexible as they say they are. I’d keep a note of the hours you’re working extra, ‘bank’ them for when you need the flexibility, then if they won’t take into account these extra hours already worked when asking you to make up the time for you new appointment I’d start looking for a new job. If they do take them into account, well I guess you have a better idea of how they work, and hopefully the flexibility balance stays reasonable.

Thank you all. I have now read my contract again.

And apologies, I only realised yesterday how many more responses I've had to this thread!
The contract reads;

'The Employee’s normal working hours will be X hours a week, together with such additional hours as are necessary for the proper performance of their duties. The Employee will not be entitled to additional remuneration for such additional hours, as this obligation has already been taken into consideration in the determination of your salary level. '

As I've said in previous posts, I can't just be unavailable for calls when I am the only one there. If at any point during the day a call comes through and nobody answers it, it goes to an outsourced company who answer, they charge the company I work for for any calls they take and also this creates work as they're not clinically trained/qualified so someone from my organisation has to call them back anyway.

Not that company, @BlueOrca but that sounds dreadful!

@Sjh15 thank you for taking the time to write that, good point-I don't have children but that doesn't mean I don't have any after-work commitments. batter an eyelid that made me laugh!

I indeed do not earn a fantastic salary-that would be different! This company however do pay slightly more than competitors however that's because they have extra procedures we have to do, the work is more involved and just generally harder, we have more work that we do.

@PropertyManager that's hilarious!

@LlamaLoopy there's no other team members there when I am on a late shift. If you're the one on that shift, you're the only one on it. Other times if calls are answered and run over/are longer than expected and eat into our own time It's just expected that we just accept it it seems.

Probation period is 3 months so I should have been approached about it by now but haven't been.

@penjil that's my thoughts too unfortunately.

@OttersAreMySpiritAnimal thank you-I do appreciate the advice from everyone.

@Carly944 I was discussing this witrh my friend yesterday and he said the same, that it is illegal, whether it is in the contract or not. It IS in my contract isn't it?

@OatcakeCravings it wouldn't be less than minimum wage. I am not on a fantastic wage by any stretch however! I am salaried at £32k p/rata and I work 30 hours.

@penjil absolutely they would!

The phone line is 24 hour but an outsourced company not in the Uk answer if a call comes through outside of our (the company I work for's) working hours

I have a professional qualification that is required by the company, for working for them.

@willWillSmithsmith ls not a call centre, although answering calls from customers is a part of the job.

@LakeSnake you're right, it would be totally inappropriate to stop a clinical assessment part way through. Some customers are in a fragile state when they call too.

@Oblomov24 not NMW but not well paid either. And yes, it soon adds up!

@Crazycrazylady not in my 'real world'! I've seriously busted myself in previous companies, worked late, arrived early, gone above and beyond with the work and had never been recognised or promoted-in fact in one organisation I learned I was literally the only person left out of the bonus structure!

The assessments we might do over the 'phone are to do with mental health, I do think I'd be inappropriate/very uncaring to end one in the middle of.

I remember a company getting into trouble (but can't remember the details) some years back because they were insisting staff had to be in the building and ready to take calls, 15 mins before the beginning of their shift!

@Lampzade that's awful

Thanks for the links everyone who's put them. @JFDIYOLO I will read through them as soon as I have time.

I wouldn't either @Carly944 but people do AND the lines are advertised as 24/7-they are, but times before 8/after 20:00 are manned by overseas staff-and the company I work for discourage any call to be going through to them in our working hours.
@CrispieCake we'd definitely be apprehended for doing that!

@Salmakia thank you-I will join a union-in fact this is the first time in along time that I've not been in one, I was self-employed before this job although I had worked for similar organisations before that.

Thank you for the advice.

@Carly944 I think that's kind of what IS in my contract!

OK so looks like they have provided for unpaid overtime as necessary so you are contractually not entitled to pay. Unless there's a separate time off in lieu section you won't be entitled to this either.

Usually though companies do come to a 'local' agreement if the extra hours become to levels over and above what's reasonable. Which is tricky as what's reasonable to them may be unreasonable to you.

As you're a PT employee there could be an argument that you're PT because you can't commit to higher hours, but in the absence of the need to work PT being related to any protected characteristics you have little to no comeback legally here.

Either way, as you have entered into the contract which is clear re overtime, you're best off approaching this amicably and explain why you can't always do the extra time. Otherwise ultimately you're not carrying out the agreed contract and they could dismiss.

In these situations I always find the best way is sussing out what the culture re: what the norm is with others working extra. If they all happily do additional few hours a week then at some point you might have to decide if this companys working practices are right for you as they are not acting unlawfully based off what you have said.

Also op there is no legal obligation for employers to pay overtime or offer compensatory time off unless the extra time brings you below NMW. Your pal is incorrect unfortunately.

I think am owed 3598 hours roughly by the NHS 😂😂😂 unless maternity appt would not get time off for any appt as would be too difficult to cover a busy ward and usually short staffed anyway.

The NHS runs on goodwill so I just take it for granted I work my breaks, dont have one or stay late after I finish. Tho I expect this I never rely on the fact I will finish on time its a bonus if I do. I moaned one time and someone in office/banking job was like so does everyone work late or start early its not uncommon. Some call centre environments if work is backlogged will give out paid overtime scheduled.

I dont know what to think or say maybe come and go as in unpaid tho you get to go to important appt’s or leave early if needed.

are any rules being broken in the uk if for example the employer needs an extra hour and does not offer overtime as when it was debated before with some of use, some seemed to think it was omg and breaking the working time rules etc

I do been doing it for 20 years its called the NHS 😂😂😂

What do other people in the same role do? Could you take advice from them? If you are asked to take a call 10 mins before you're due to leave can you say "no problem until x time but then I'm off shift and need to pick my kids up/sort family dinner"?

This forum is polluted with fantasist supervisors who have nothing in their lives except for a nominal bit of line management power, and by god are they desperate to talk about how they wield it.

Do you criticise employers for only paying what the contract says and clock watching start times?

Thank you everyone, again.

I think I might call ACAS about it.

I am wondering if my raising it as an issue (i.e. asking my manager the protocol) is the reason I have not had my probationary review yet, as It's a 3 month period and I started at the beginning of February, so it should have been done.

Definitely going to join a union.

Other niggles I have with this job encompass that we're contracted to work bank holidays, however we don't all work them, hardly anyone does. They send a note out asking for volunteers for one or two shifts to be covered. The rest of the work is covered by the 'out of hours' team. There's (obviously) been three bank holiday Mondays since I started in February. I worked one of them. When they hadn't yet got a volunteer for this coming bank holiday Monday they asked me and I said I couldn't do it.

They said I should've booked it off. I feel that out of the whole team and me having only been there a few months and having already worked one, they should look at those who hadn't worked any of them. However they expect anyone who can't work it to book it off, although only one or two of us is required to work?

Surely they should have it on a rota with an option to swap if required, rather than us all be expected to keep it free, even though only one of us will end up working it?

@Megifer thank you again for the lengthy response. I guess I will just have to suck it up-they seem to want to give me the hour back-maybe an hour is their threshold? Some people would have been annoyed at being stuck on their late shift (so working until 21:00 instead of 20:00 on a Friday night!) but I was okay about it, I just didn't think they'd expect it for free. Maybe if it was 40 minutes it would've been okay, I don't know. I'll speak to others if I get chance it is just tricky, I don't know anyone well yet.

I honestly agree with your view of employment rights and how they should be, but sadly we haven't had a government that gave a flying fuck about workers since 1976, so sadly you're mistaken on the legal position. Requiring workers to do unpaid overtime is sadly legal if it doesn't push them below minimum wage.

What happens re pay for bank hols? This will be key.

I work for partially phone based position, and we only accrue TOIL/additional pay 30 mins after the scheduled finish time. As such, I only take calls until 5 minutes before I finish (ish) to try and avoid getting stuck, as I think the idea is unfair (5 days a week finishing 25 mins late and being unpaid would add up!). Could you do something similar OP? We have what we call “post call processing” as an option on the system, for when you need to add a note to the file, log an IT ticket etc, do you have something like this you can use to make sure you don’t get stuck?

@Heath25 no, we don't have that. Most of our work is not based on the phone. So as long as one or two people are available to be on the phone if someone rings, the rest of the team are on unavailable. It works okay during the shift usually. If management notice, or one of us notices nobody is available, or the ones who are have now taken a call, we'll finish up what we're doing and go on available.
@FrogTheWarrior they give you a different day off when you do a bank holiday shift.

I had commented I am owed thousands of hours unpaid thats the NHS for you. Tho agree with your comment about give and take and what you say is reasonable. Xx

And let's not forget the extra childcare cost/fines for late picking up, inability to actually be able to plan your life outside of work. It's not just call centres, almost every MW job I've had in pubs, cafes, restaurants and shops expects you to be present and working right up to close, and THEN spend as long as it takes to clean the place down properly ready for the next day, and that time was never ever paid for, often an extra hour per shift. If the shift was short staffed or very busy, this would often take a LOT longer than an hour. Add on the other issue of extra commute home time / costs especially late evening. This is on top of rarely knowing one week to the next when you would actually be working as the rotas changed weekly, with no choice but to accept as you need to job. Often the management would simply leave at finishing time and expect one of the lower staff to lock up. Any complaints resulted in comments of you're not a team player, less or no shifts the following week and in one case getting screamed at and fired for daring to point out all buses stopped at midnight.
One last point, how exactly is OP meant to be able to contact childcare/whatever commitments she had that evening IF SHE IS STUCK ON A CALL? An abusive partner may well take umbrage and take this out on her...I can imagine how that argument would go at home. But we are all meant to be grateful for the opportunity to work more for free? Never ever again, sorry , this team player has lined enough of companies pockets for free.

So how would you get rid of an employee who decided to keep a list of free OT she or he has done? You can’t sack them for that. Yes I know there is always a way, but often that would involve setting someone up or lying about something happening. If you would get rid of a good employee purely for the reason that they want paying for overtime, you don’t sound like someone I would want to work for

Check your contract. I bet it says in there, may be required to work later when necessary. People don't read them but they sign them

Sounds like the horrendous PIP assessor role I've just walked out of!

@MibsXX

Yep I agree with every word . I noticed management never stayed to the end expect for one to lock the store up . When I worked in a cafe I ended up doing all the shutdowns and I noticed after the lunch time rush the staff would just stand about chatting knowing I had to shut down . After a while I just used to leave the stacking trolley full of dirty crockery for the morning staff to put through the dish washer the next day . At 6pm I left on the dot as I worked out they were getting 5 hours unpaid overtime out of me a week. If they want me to stay behind either pay me or give me the time back . I was not salaried. These employers are all give and no take .

It's actually in all other ways, a nice 'place' to work! Everyone is lovely and supportive, I must say that.

It's not a well-paid profession but it is a profession nonetheless. At least 3 years training for it (usually, I know there are some shortcuts now that are not always favoured by the governing body). I would not be allowed to clinically assess if I wasn't qualified. I guess I mean it isn't the sort of job where anyone can just walk in and do it. Not sure if that makes a difference.