Said something 'offensive' about sex/gender at work, meeting on Wednesday. Hand hold and advice needed.

[Grubble]

I've NC and I'm going to change some minor details to avoid outing.

I hope this is the right place to post - I'm after help about the work/employment issues I'm facing, rather than anything to do with the sex/gender debate.

Here goes:
I do MMA and am 'senior level'. The gym I train at is mostly men. Men and women don't spar together. There are only two other 'senior' women at my gym that I can spar with. If we find a class that two of us will be at, we'll both agree to definitely get to that class so we get chance to spar.

Last week, I declined an evening event at work because I'd booked a sparring session with one of these women.

A colleague asked me why I wasn't going to the event. I explained. As I was explaining I said "Obviously men and women don't spar with each other so when there's a chance for me to spar with one of the senior women, I take it".

A couple of other colleagues were standing around and heard the conversation. One of them said "Why obviously?" and I answered - men are bigger, men are heavier, men's bodies are shaped/composed differently, there's lots of holding/grabbing, men can't fully throw themselves into sparring with women so its a bit of a waste of time for them, and ultimately its just gym policy anyway.

Today I've received an email from HR asking me to attend a meeting on Wednesday about 'offensive comments' I made last week. I've followed HR up this morning and they've told me that my 'offensive comments' were about my explanation of men/women not sparring with each other.

The lady in HR said its likely to be a informal chat to identify why my comments were offensive and to 'find a way through' (her exact words). She said it didn't look like there'd be any question of formal disciplinary action.

So, basically I've been summoned to a bollocking.

I've worked here 9 years and have an impeccable record. I've never been told off or had any sort of HR intervention before. So I'm not sure what to do or what to expect. I'm not in a union.

I wonder if anyone has any advice on the situation. What should I expect on Wednesday? How should I handle it? I'm completely clueless. Thank you!

TLDR: Been summoned for a bollocking on Wednesday because I told colleagues why men/women don't spar together at my MMA gym. What should I do?

Agree with PP who say don't allow them to take you down the trans route. Just parrot the legislative and sport governing body position. Biological sex is a protected characteristic. Biological sex has an empirical impact on size, strength etc (ie there is not only a material difference that can be measured, but that difference is so great that it is easily observable to ordinary people). Therefore the sport governing body separates people according to biological sex to ensure their safety. This is common across sports in which there is a physical strength and size advantage and has been the case ever since women started participating in those sports. That is why it is obvious.

Any attempt to get you talking about trans women and trans men needs to be shut down. You weren't talking about them. You weren't having a discussion about trans rights or trans identity. You are not willing to have a discussion with HR about anything trans related as it is irrelevant to what you were talking about. You were just answering a question about why you weren't going to your sport on a particular occasion. You gave a straightforward reply. End of.

I would raise a counter complaint for victimisation, harassment and personal attack, OP.

That's outrageous behaviour from your colleague and he shouldn't be allowed to get away with bullying you.

I think I will do so.

@Grubble , well obviously you can't spar with men because it is gym policy. And whatever your beliefs you have to understand and abide by gym policy - you don't have to agree with it. Nor should you be asked whether you agree or disagree with the policy.

Your belief that sex is real, and matters in some circumstances, is a protected belief following the Forstater case. Of course, it is not so much a “belief” as material reality, but we are where we are. Be sure to mention this at an early stage, as you cannot be treated less favourably for holding this belief.

I was hoping someone had linked to Maya Forstater's case.

Here's a detailed analysis of female v male physical strength:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7930971/

The glorious Emma Hilton has a Twitter thread with TONS of data, entitled "Evolution built men to pack a punch."
https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1225497273808883712

From her thread: A male punch could be 2.6x more powerful than a female punch. Females punch at 40% the power of males.

I mean, it's absolutley fuck all to do with him! Your free time, your opinions, your sport, your body, your risk assessments etc. Fuckign creepy, if you ask me.

I agree with this - don't get into drawn-out responses about protected characteristics, Stonewall or the trans debate. I'd also ask them to clarify what they perceive to be offensive, and how they would have responded. Don't respond to hypothetical scenarios, and do ask how this is relevant to your work.

That. And this:

I wouldn't bring up the trans issue at all. You just have to say that of course men and women train differently and don't compete against each other in that sport.

Act as if you don't know what's behind the complaint. It's obvious to anyone with a grain of sense, that men don't spar with women. If HR bring up trans. make it clear that there was no mention of anyone trans in the conversation. You were simply saying that there aren't many people you can practice with, and that you answered a simple question about why the sexes don't spar with each other.

This is utterly and totally outrageous @Grubble It’s your gym’s policy, FFS.

Go armed with the language of the Equalities Act which absolutely allows such a gym policy as legal. You could also contact the Women’s Rights Network.

Whoever complained about you deserves the bollocking, not you.

argh, I can’t express how angry this makes me. I hope you’re OK. Solidarity and we have your back - you might find that a good search of FWR posts will help as well, for how to face this down.

You could try to use your Cs with this one.

I am curious why acknowledging the physical differences between men and women, particularly in high level combat sport, is an issue?

Wait for their answer and follow up with:
I am confused as to why you would go against the 10 guiding principles for equity in sport when they have been developed by to give equality as well as safety for those competing in all sports. (Refer to post above that outlines the principles, particularly in relation to birth sex for combat sports)

I am concerned that ... Pick something for this one eg concerned you have been called in to HR for responding honestly to a query on your high level, combat sport when your response was clearly in line with equality principles around high level combat sports.

I wouldn't mention the trans word. If they bring it up, it's covered by those principles that were very helpfully included above. I'd print them out and have a copy ready to share with HR with the relevant parts highlighted.

When using the Cs, say your sentence and sit back and wait for them to respond. Don't fill any silences.

This sort of nonsensical offence-taking is a form of bullying. The bullying male (in this case) is harrassing you and harrassing the HR woman by making her follow up on his vexatious offence-taking. Can you sneak a look at his social media? Is he trying to get 'likes' out of this?

As others have said: write down what happened, bring a supporter to the meeting, let HR lead the conversation, long silences, let the questions hang, good eye contact, keep to the point, refuse to answer any tangental questions (doubt they'll be that stupid anyway), write down your recollection of the conversation. If HR says they will drop it then leave it at that for now. If HR tries to pursue then tell them you will make a counter claim of harrassment.

Sending sympathy for you. Harrassment at work is always horrible, whatever form it takes.

Please let us know how you get on.

Any attempt to get you talking about trans women and trans men needs to be shut down. You weren't talking about them. You weren't having a discussion about trans rights or trans identity. You are not willing to have a discussion with HR about anything trans related as it is irrelevant to what you were talking about. You were just answering a question about why you weren't going to your sport on a particular occasion. You gave a straightforward reply. End of.

That's a lot better than my post. Do and say exactly that, OP. Except I think it's "why you WERE going to your sport..."

I do martial arts at a high level, and have to spar with men because there aren't any other women bar one, that are at my level in my club.

But, its a given that those men have to pull back and be more careful. I'm 5ft 3 and most of them are over 6st and muscled. It isn't equal for men and women to spar. Granted it pushes my skillset and boundaries more, and you can't be shy about shoving a boob in their face, or me getting a face full of sweaty man crotch but it's not idea and I would rather spar with women.

Men ARE stronger, they have a longer reach, bigger fists, larger lung and heart capacity etc. I gas out massively early fighting 6ft 1in, 18st bloke long before they do because I have to work so much harder with less lung/heart capacity.

It's biology!!

This is the relevant part of the EQA2010, in particular point 3 -

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/195

Counter complaint re harassment is a good idea.

They may have done that already. Why are HR doing this in the first place? It's a manager's job, or does the manager have tiny balls?

Take along a copy of the gym policy and say you want an apology from the asshole complainant - who should have been sent away firmly with a flea in their ignorant, time-wasting ear.

If you don't have a union rep, I suggest you request that a colleague accompany you.

It's abo-fucking-lutely bloody ridiculous that someone has so goddamn little to do in their miserable lives as to make an issue of a non-issue!

6st should be 6ft 🤣

This is fabulous - the three C's, I love it!

Or. Just pretend you don’t remember the whole conversation.
i did that once (actually didn’t ) and put them onto the back foot - they had to prove it and reveal the complainant

If the 'offence' was you genuinely explaining about why men and women don't fight or spar together (maybe he's one of those who thinks feminism has gone too far, and if women want equality they should be prepared to accept it in all areas) then you stick to the facts. The rule about men and women fighting isn't limited to your gym, it's accepted world wide.

If his complaint is a thinly veiled accusation of transphobia then refuse to be drawn into it. Keep saying that your reply was based on the rationale for the rules of the sport.

I would ask them to explain how what I said was offensive and then if they could point out where I was in contravention of org policy. If they started to flounder I’d put a complaint in about nonsense complaints creating a toxic environment and feeling personally harassed and distressed by said nonsense.

Let them do all the talking, as much of it as possible, staring at them steadily in silence is the best thing you can do.

That made me properly laugh out loud.

I knew what you meant but the image of you absolutely gassed fighting these tiny 6stone men has genuinely warmed me heart.

Also if anyone says anything about trans people just say “I don’t understand, who was talking about trans people there was no mention of trans people”

@Gymnopedie I don't think he's a 'feminism has gone too far' type. He's a 'white feminism is exclusionary and TWAW' type.

Op I’m worried you’ll have to delete this before it all pans out. We need a sub thread for results!