Said something 'offensive' about sex/gender at work, meeting on Wednesday. Hand hold and advice needed.

[Grubble]

I've NC and I'm going to change some minor details to avoid outing.

I hope this is the right place to post - I'm after help about the work/employment issues I'm facing, rather than anything to do with the sex/gender debate.

Here goes:
I do MMA and am 'senior level'. The gym I train at is mostly men. Men and women don't spar together. There are only two other 'senior' women at my gym that I can spar with. If we find a class that two of us will be at, we'll both agree to definitely get to that class so we get chance to spar.

Last week, I declined an evening event at work because I'd booked a sparring session with one of these women.

A colleague asked me why I wasn't going to the event. I explained. As I was explaining I said "Obviously men and women don't spar with each other so when there's a chance for me to spar with one of the senior women, I take it".

A couple of other colleagues were standing around and heard the conversation. One of them said "Why obviously?" and I answered - men are bigger, men are heavier, men's bodies are shaped/composed differently, there's lots of holding/grabbing, men can't fully throw themselves into sparring with women so its a bit of a waste of time for them, and ultimately its just gym policy anyway.

Today I've received an email from HR asking me to attend a meeting on Wednesday about 'offensive comments' I made last week. I've followed HR up this morning and they've told me that my 'offensive comments' were about my explanation of men/women not sparring with each other.

The lady in HR said its likely to be a informal chat to identify why my comments were offensive and to 'find a way through' (her exact words). She said it didn't look like there'd be any question of formal disciplinary action.

So, basically I've been summoned to a bollocking.

I've worked here 9 years and have an impeccable record. I've never been told off or had any sort of HR intervention before. So I'm not sure what to do or what to expect. I'm not in a union.

I wonder if anyone has any advice on the situation. What should I expect on Wednesday? How should I handle it? I'm completely clueless. Thank you!

TLDR: Been summoned for a bollocking on Wednesday because I told colleagues why men/women don't spar together at my MMA gym. What should I do?

It won't be a bollocking.

It'll be a fact finding interview, conducted formally and minuted by somebody.

They will most likely refuse you permission to have anybody with you because you don't have the right at this stage. Even if it goes further to disciplinary, they will not give permission for your DH to attend - colleague or union rep only.

Download the employer's disciplinary procedure and email to your personal email address right now. Do the same with the grievance/complaints/inclusion policies and a copy of your contract, together with any records of training and handouts/emails that hopefully differentiate between the protected characteristics.

And then it's as you said, you were asked why you do not spar with males and you explained why. No big deal, it's just what the gym rules and reasoning behind them is. Males don't spar with females because. It's clear this is a sex related differentiation that has nothing to do with gender reassignment.

agree. Or just don’t remember anything !!

I'm struggling to keep up with all the responses but I want you all to know that I'm deeply appreciative of your responses, thank you.

My head was absolutely scrambled but you've all pulled me together and given me a clear plan and approach. I had so much impotent rage this morning but I now feel I have a direction for my anger, I shall channel it wisely.

This is exactly the approach where I train. Women and men are treated as equal but different.

Same at my gym. I lift heavy and can do 100kilo deadlift, and a sled drag of 400 kilos. But it’s taken me 5 years of hard training. A man -even at my age (mid-60s) would overtake my heaviest weights pretty quickly if they trained like I do. They’re just stronger: bigger skeletons, more muscle mass.

But can I re-emphasise advice upthread - I was threatened with discipline for supposed “transphobia” at work, and rang my Employee assistance programme for some advice about how to deal with it.

The Process is the punishment - I wasn’t given sight of the actual complaint until I was in a meeting with HR (which I think is appalling practice, but seems to be “normal”).

The woman on the employee advice line advised me that I shouldn’t say anything, in that I shouldn’t jump in and offer any sort of explanation etc.

Her advice was - let them outline the issue. Answer only the specific questions. Don’t offer any further than what they ask about.

I got the sense that I wasn’t the first person she’d advised about spurious accusations (and that the threat of discipline over “transphobia” wasn’t new to her either, although this was 2018)

And be ready with your certainty that your GC views are a protected belief. And you don’t have to tell them what you believe in your private life, basically.

But really, it’s a public sector area? I am furious about the waste of my taxes on this - you’re being harassed, basically.

I'd encourage the HR lady to do an MMA round with a bloke to prove her point

Brilliant advice.

Strength to you @Grubble

Use your training. You know, that bit where you keep calm and focused, rather than going into a red mist and dropping your guard?

If it did go to a formal final process, you would then have the right to call people as witnesses. I'd be thinking of the biggest, scariest looking giant of a bloke at your gym to explain the gym policy in terms of 'no, of course I can't spar with her freely, I could kill her'.

Obviously was a figure of speech/verbal tic.

You were explaining the reason behind the policy but ultimately if you want to use the gym you have to follow their policy. You didn't express any opinions on whether this is correct/lawful.

If trans is raised ask who mentioned trans because you certainly didn't and you don't know how the gym define "men" and "women" you just know there are two people who present as women with whom you are permitted to spar.

I really think you need to go in nonchalant about this. Use your womanly ‘blondeness’ for sure. Don’t be dragged down any feminism, gender, sex, or anything of that nature.

You enjoy MMA. You enjoy sparring with the two other senior women and so take the opportunity to whenever you can. Say sex only came into the discussion because you were asked why you don’t like sparring with men and you explained the difference in sparring with a man as opposed to a women.

This is an MMA discussion about your practice preferences by someone advanced in the sport at senior level. This is nothing to do with sex/ gender debate.

I see you're public sector.
Given the circumstances as you've explained them, I think i'd attend the meeting and hand HR their arse on a plate! Under no circumstances would I be apologising. I'd remind HR of their duty of care to ALL employees, and that by taking sides in petty gripes they're teetering very close to bullying and harassment.
HR should've told your colleague to pipe up in future if he's offended by something innocently/ambiguously said (it's not like you used any discriminatory or offensive terminology). Encouraging staff to use official channels to tittle tattle and gossip about each other is horrific practice!

Nothing offensive-point out most sports, especially contact, have make & female teams. Boxers keep different sex’s apart. Even non contact sports - tennis & badminton for example.

some sports take advantage of the size difference for mixed teams e.g. rowing. Some sports men & women compete together when it is just a matter of skill e.g. equestrian sports.

just ridiculous- just don’t be dragged into the trans gender debacle.

I agree with the PPs who have suggested saying as little as possible, and asking the HR person to explain the alleged offence themselves.

The conversation was around your gym policy, don’t be led down a track of issues that didn’t crop up in the conversation. You were explaining your gym policy .

I would be concerned about the HR use of the phrase why your comments were offensive rather than whether your comments were offensive- that suggests that they made up their minds before hearing you out.

If she can't remember anything, then the complainant's account can be true. It's not an effective way of deflecting unwanted attention.

Go to the gym pronto and obtain a written copy on their headed stationery, of their gender policy on sparring partners.

Gp to HR meeting with the evidence, and carrying a bucket for the head of whichever fool of a colleague has tried to smear you.

Take a photo of an MMA male in and ask them if they would be willing to fight him?

We are all behind you.. if the conversation gets away from you.. take it back.

I can hear what you are saying and I hope that you can also hear what I am saying. Maybe we should leave it there, reflect on what has been said and come back to this conversation.

@2bazookas I shall dig out my bestest bucket for the occasion

@NeverDropYourMooncup That's fabulous advice, thank you!

I'm at the gym tonight so will ask for a copy of their policy on sparring. 'Policy' is a bit grandiose and I'm not even sure they have a printer but I'll see what I can do. I'll most definitely have a copy before Wednesday however I end up getting it.
I'm interested to see the reaction of the men at the gym when I explain the situation 😂

Yes, this.

I just wouldn't get drawn into the ethics of the policy unless HR raise it first.

The issue here, as I see it, is another employee deliberately victimising and bullying you.

If he wants to argue the toss about males in women's sports or the physical differences between the sexes, let him waffle on, it's clear nonsense and you are under no obligation whatsoever to respond or counter his mad ideas.

Would HR pull up an employee because another employee found their political views offensive? Or their religion?

If you were asked how you were voting, for example, and answered, and someone else decided to take offense at your vote for the Liberal Democrats, is that genuinely an HR issue?

If you were asked about attending temple and someone found your religion offensive, is that an HR issue?

If so, I'd be seeking another job. It's not HR's job to police employee's views or beliefs. You could plausibly counter that they're risking discriminating against you on grounds of your (protected) belief.

Sadly in the area of the public sector I work in, I think HR do think its their job to police employee's views and beliefs, especially around sex and gender.

Well, that's outrageous, and they are acting illegally if they discriminate against you because of your beliefs.

I would contact Sex Matters.

https://sex-matters.org/

Welcome to 1984. At this stage I would lawyer up. If we don't fight back, we will be in a world of trouble - looks like we're already here.

Oh, and make a point of saying male and female, not men and women, throughout.

Be very precise about language. Male and female.

If the entire grievance hinges upon whether you said male or men, if you keep repeating 'Male and female', you're emphasising the sex, not getting dragged into the gender reassignment stuff.

'But what if there was a transwoman?'

'There are 30/whatever males and three females including me'.

'But what if there was?'

'There are three females at this level and 30/whatever males'. Even if it irritates to say it, maybe even throw in a cisgender or two.

'But - ?'

'All females at this level, cisgender or otherwise, have to spar with their own sex, not gender'.

1. Take your union rep along with you

N/A - not a union member

2.If you don't have a union rep, ask a colleague to come with you (obvs not one of the colleagues who complained!)

Ask first - they are within their rights to refuse at this stage, and you don't want to irritate HR by rocking up with someone as a given. Don't ask either to take anyone from your actual life - if they permit anyone, it can only be a colleague, as you don't have a union rep.

Also clarify the rationale for this meeting/what any potential outworkings might be. Is it a formal or informal complaint, and under which policy? Ask for the names of all who will be attending the meeting.

3.Ask HR if you can record the discussion. If they say no, then state to them that you will be writing down the precise questions / comments they make to you. Have a big pad and pen and do this for every item they raise.

Absolutely DO NOT ask if you can record the discussion - this will be a 'no'. You are perfectly at liberty to take notes. If HR or a notetaker make a written record, politely request that a copy is sent to you after the meeting.

Don't react in the conversation. Tell HR that you will consider their behaviour (HR's) and the behaviour of the upset colleague, and that you will reply to them in writing. Don't reply until you've slept on it and got someone to read your draft first.

Don't tell HR anything of the sort. You might wish to pre-prepare a short typed submission to hand over, which HR like because they don't have to write as much! Keep it very brief and very factual. Repeat your comments, explain the context, ie the gym policy, and provide a copy of it. Make a note of any witnesses to the conversation. Any leading questions - keep repeating, "that did not happen", "that is not what was said" etc. For example, if trans was not referred to, shut any such suggestion down firmly. Clarify who the complainant is, and consider asking whether any measures will be put in place to avoid your having to work with this person while the matter is being dealt with.

Less is most definitely more - the less you say while answering any questions directly and truthfully, will provide less 'ammunition' to use against you, should HR be stupid enough to take this any further. Still shocked that HR is conducting this meeting.

You could I suppose refer to your impeccable work record, but this is supposed to be a discussion to determine if there is any substance to the complaint, and the above is more about mitigating circumstances in a disciplinary situation.

I'd be disgusted if this went any further - please don't lose any sleep over it because I can assure you that cnut won't be!! Best wishes.

What kind of idiot complains about what you’ve said? You’ve stated clear and obvious fact, gym policy and kept any emotional or interpretation out of it.

turn this around and ask why you’re being asked this when it’s clear you’ve not broken any rules, not said anything other than fact and to suggest otherwise is entirely unhelpful.