Said something 'offensive' about sex/gender at work, meeting on Wednesday. Hand hold and advice needed.

[Grubble]

I've NC and I'm going to change some minor details to avoid outing.

I hope this is the right place to post - I'm after help about the work/employment issues I'm facing, rather than anything to do with the sex/gender debate.

Here goes:
I do MMA and am 'senior level'. The gym I train at is mostly men. Men and women don't spar together. There are only two other 'senior' women at my gym that I can spar with. If we find a class that two of us will be at, we'll both agree to definitely get to that class so we get chance to spar.

Last week, I declined an evening event at work because I'd booked a sparring session with one of these women.

A colleague asked me why I wasn't going to the event. I explained. As I was explaining I said "Obviously men and women don't spar with each other so when there's a chance for me to spar with one of the senior women, I take it".

A couple of other colleagues were standing around and heard the conversation. One of them said "Why obviously?" and I answered - men are bigger, men are heavier, men's bodies are shaped/composed differently, there's lots of holding/grabbing, men can't fully throw themselves into sparring with women so its a bit of a waste of time for them, and ultimately its just gym policy anyway.

Today I've received an email from HR asking me to attend a meeting on Wednesday about 'offensive comments' I made last week. I've followed HR up this morning and they've told me that my 'offensive comments' were about my explanation of men/women not sparring with each other.

The lady in HR said its likely to be a informal chat to identify why my comments were offensive and to 'find a way through' (her exact words). She said it didn't look like there'd be any question of formal disciplinary action.

So, basically I've been summoned to a bollocking.

I've worked here 9 years and have an impeccable record. I've never been told off or had any sort of HR intervention before. So I'm not sure what to do or what to expect. I'm not in a union.

I wonder if anyone has any advice on the situation. What should I expect on Wednesday? How should I handle it? I'm completely clueless. Thank you!

TLDR: Been summoned for a bollocking on Wednesday because I told colleagues why men/women don't spar together at my MMA gym. What should I do?

I'll try and get someone to attend with me.

Are partners/husbands allowed to attend HR meetings?

If they did ask that question, I would refuse to answer. I'm not willing to discuss decisions that I make about how I spend, and with whom I spend, my non-work time.

Good gravy. Wasn't Fallon Fox dire warning to everyone?

I'm not sure I can claim I was just explaining gym policy because I was talking about men/women not sparring as being obvious.

It should be obvious that contact sports cannot be between male and female because of the biological imbalance, whatever the other person claims their gender to be.

Men and Women can spar with eachother? Why is it obvious that they can't? Maybe I'm thinking too general and it's your gym specific rule... but then why would you get a bollocking for staying that if so?
As a woman, I prefer to Spar with men. The women aren't anywhere near a challenge. What's the point is limiting yourself, as a woman, to only spar with women of a similar size etc. If you're going to get roughed up down a dark alley, it's likely not going to be from a woman of similar build to you...

I wouldn't worry about the meeting though. You know what the rules are for your gym. You know you haven't said anything offensive. It is your choice surely, who you choose to Spar with. How can they have an issue with your personal choice?

You were stating/explaining gym policy because it is obvious to the gym why this policy is applied. Refer HR to the gym, their policy not yours. If necessary take a copy of the policy with you.

I'm worried they will ask "would you spar with a trans man".

This is exactly the sort of thing the OP shouldn't be drawn on. Possible responses: "That wasn't what we were discussing." "I don't understand what trans issues have to do with the conversation at hand." "I'm not familiar with the guidelines but if you're interested in the gym's policies I can give you their email address."

This ☝️

Or maybe 'I refuse to answer on the grounds that some petty minded person would twist my words to suit their own agenda and run to HR to complain' .

I would agree with bringing someone with you...

Maybe start with the fact that you were referring to sex which is a lawful categorisation that acknowledges the broad ranging and significant performance differences between the sexes and is in keeping with the Equality Act. (quotes from the sports document above)

If they insist that your comment caused offence, asking for the policies under which another employee is entitled to raise this issue with HR when the offence is caused in relation to statements of fact?

If they query the validity of your statements - refer them to the Equality in Sport document which has been very carefully considered.

Refer them to the Stonewall definitions of sex:

Sex: Assigned to a person on the basis of primary sex characteristics (genitalia) and reproductive function

Gender identity: A person’s innate sense of their own gender, whether male, female or something else (see non-binary below), which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned at birth.

There is no stonewall definition of male or female.

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/list-lgbtq-terms. In their current form, some of the definitions on stonewall are actually quite useful where they refer to gender being culturally determined and assumed based on sex. (in my opinion).

Good luck - breath, be calm, do not engage in debate, ask for clarification, ask for definitions, ask for what you have said that is wrong.. if it gets heated, as to adjourn and see representation.

This is the most bizarre story I’ve read in a while.
Tell the fuckers that you were just explaining the gym policy and they should deal with the gym itself, as you are not willing to be a middle man/translator between the two institutions. Then I would literally walk away no matter what. As for apologising? Ha! No way!
Btw you just got to truly know the people you work with. After all this, I am not sure I would stay there if I were you. If you do, expect more fuckery in the future.

@Grubble You can't bring your OH to a HR meeting - it would have to be a colleague, and one where there's no conflict of interest. For example, if you got on well with the HR person's boss, you couldn't bring them as a representative.

Assuming you're being truthful in your account of what happened, the only offence I can see being taken is from you implying something. Are you gender critical? Could something have been taken from your tone?

Your comments seem to be a comparison of sex rather than gender, making it difficult to identify how you've upset someone, unless they thought there was something to read between the lines.

Do you do MMA? I suspect not.

Men and women sparring, even when matched on weight, isn't fair.

Men generally have a greater reach so women find it hard to get in range safely.

Men generally have greater upper body strength which means grappling is completely weighted towards men.

When men and women spar, men don't put their all into it. Partly because they're aware of their own biological advantage and the safety implications. But also because of deeply ingrained ideas that they shouldn't hit women which means they pull their punches. Sparring with me might be great for women who are challenged to their absolute max. but its not great for the men because they don't get good quality practice.

MMA has lots of rolling around on the floor, grabbing each other etc. Most men and women feel more comfortable being up close and personal with members of their same sex.

If they mention trans issues in any way, shape or form, I would absolutely underline the point that this couldn’t possibly be why my colleague had reported the conversation, as at no point whatsoever, was that word even mentioned. It was absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. So what was the colleague actually offended about? Because it couldn’t have been trans issues, as they were not even under discussion. So what was the offence, please? And just keep asking.

It sounds so Orwellian. Can’t believe you have to put up with this rubbish OP. I really hope it goes well for you and the ridiculous complainant educates themselves on basic biology.

Thanks @ChateauMargaux

@intotalfreefall Okay, thank you for clarifying that. Yes, I'm GC but not 'out' at work as it were. I'm being totally truthful here.

If you’re in a union ask them for some advice and to represent you. I find no offence in what you’ve described as the so called offensive conversation. Anyway what has your private life/hobbies got to do with HR, I think it’s outrageous.

Like someone else has said don’t apologise, all the best.

Also @intotalfreefall I suspect it's my saying "Obviously men and women can't spar..." which has caused the trouble. Not so much my tone as the ingrained biological essentialism in what I was saying 🙄

This fucking unbelievable.

Orwellian is right.

I’m furious on your behalf and terrified where this shit is continuing to head.

Stay strong, you’ve done nothing wrong. When I had an issue with a company I was allowed to bring a friend with me to a formal meeting.

If the offended person wants to come at this from a trans standpoint, then actually you could well have been using men and women in the gender ideological sense so it is they that has misassumed.

When you go into the meeting, don't immediately start explaining what you said and why even if that's what they're wanting. Ask them to explain why what you said was offensive. Make them go first. You can't answer until you know what you've been accused of, and it will make them squirm.

And then keep any answers you do give factual. It's the gym policy because...

What are the federation or governing body rules? Can't you say 'I was simply explaining the federation rules and our policy'. The ask if they think men and women should be able to spar with each other? And why not?

It's always quite startling to see people claim that there is absolutely no difference between males and females, which is what it looks like the person taking offence believes.

Neither is 'better' than the other, just adapted in different ways and as various sporting organisations have come to realise, safety trumps inclusion.

Join the Free Speech Union and ask them for advice.

Belief in the binary and sexually dimorphic nature of biological sex is a protected belief under the Equality Act 2010. You didn't mention trans, don't be drawn jnto that conversation.

Best of luck

https://freespeechunion.org/

I haven't read all of the replies on this thread but has anyone mentioned the fractured skull case? That would explain the use of "obviously" as it is quite a well-known example of what can happen with mixed sex sparring.

Men and women are different, gender may be changeable, but the sex we are born with isn’t. I just despair about the way things are going in the World, People are scared to speak about the sex/gender debate, for fear of being accused as offensive, like the OP. It’s being rammed down everyones throat, including our children, where will it all end?