Said something 'offensive' about sex/gender at work, meeting on Wednesday. Hand hold and advice needed.

[Grubble]

I've NC and I'm going to change some minor details to avoid outing.

I hope this is the right place to post - I'm after help about the work/employment issues I'm facing, rather than anything to do with the sex/gender debate.

Here goes:
I do MMA and am 'senior level'. The gym I train at is mostly men. Men and women don't spar together. There are only two other 'senior' women at my gym that I can spar with. If we find a class that two of us will be at, we'll both agree to definitely get to that class so we get chance to spar.

Last week, I declined an evening event at work because I'd booked a sparring session with one of these women.

A colleague asked me why I wasn't going to the event. I explained. As I was explaining I said "Obviously men and women don't spar with each other so when there's a chance for me to spar with one of the senior women, I take it".

A couple of other colleagues were standing around and heard the conversation. One of them said "Why obviously?" and I answered - men are bigger, men are heavier, men's bodies are shaped/composed differently, there's lots of holding/grabbing, men can't fully throw themselves into sparring with women so its a bit of a waste of time for them, and ultimately its just gym policy anyway.

Today I've received an email from HR asking me to attend a meeting on Wednesday about 'offensive comments' I made last week. I've followed HR up this morning and they've told me that my 'offensive comments' were about my explanation of men/women not sparring with each other.

The lady in HR said its likely to be a informal chat to identify why my comments were offensive and to 'find a way through' (her exact words). She said it didn't look like there'd be any question of formal disciplinary action.

So, basically I've been summoned to a bollocking.

I've worked here 9 years and have an impeccable record. I've never been told off or had any sort of HR intervention before. So I'm not sure what to do or what to expect. I'm not in a union.

I wonder if anyone has any advice on the situation. What should I expect on Wednesday? How should I handle it? I'm completely clueless. Thank you!

TLDR: Been summoned for a bollocking on Wednesday because I told colleagues why men/women don't spar together at my MMA gym. What should I do?

Without wishing to prejudge how HR will handle this...this is completely Orwellian.

im Anticipating HR ask you to apologise...outrageous institutionalised bullying and sexism.

You're taking it very well and I appreciate you might not have much choice but this stings...

Are you in a union? I'd be tempted to have a quick chat with them.

I wouldn't go in to this with an attempt to prove your side right as such, because I don't think that would go down well with HR.

If they mention issues around transness, just be very clear you did not bring this up.

You need to treat this as an employment issue- i.e. someone has made a spurious complaint about you.

Were you saying you couldn't come to a work event because of sparring? Does this cause someone else more work? I wonder if that's the real reason behind the complaint.

The thing is, sex segregation isn't just about male physical advantage.

There's lots of grabbing and holding and grappling and wrestling around on the floor in MMA which means you often get a fistful of boob or bum or you end up with your face smushed against someone's crotch etc.

This might have already been quoted so apologies if I have missed it. In September 2021 Equality in Sport which is an organisation formed of relevant members from Sport England, Sport Wales and Sport Scotland, produced the following guidelines for sport. This is the basis on which ALL sports should be developing their inclusion policies.

https://equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Guidance%20for%20Transgender%20Inclusion%20in%20Domestic%20Sport%202021.pdf. It is titled Transgender, which you might want to avoid - but the Guiding Principles are set out below - I have included them in full after a reduced version to just show the points that you might want to include - excuse numbering, it lost structure when I copied it across.. and length...

Guiding Principles are for sports to use when developing policies in this area:

1. Categorisation within the sex binary is and remains the most useful and functional division relative to sporting performance.
2. This categorisation acknowledges the broad ranging and significant performance differences between the sexes. Hence, sports should retain sex categorisation, along with age and disability (and weight as appropriate) categories.
3. This principle is in keeping with the provisions of the Equality Act, and acknowledges the average differences in strength, stamina, and physique between the sexes.
4. Categorisation by sex is lawful, and hence the requirement to request information relating to birth sex is appropriate.

Full Version..
These 10 Guiding Principles are for sports to use when developing policies in this area:

1. All of the Sports Councils are committed to the inclusion of transgender people in sport and physical activity.
2. In keeping with the findings of this review, the goals of acceptance, social inclusion and physical activity may be best achieved outside of the sex binary in grassroots and domestic sport. The introduction of new and different models within sport offers an alternative option to meet the needs of people across all the strands of the Equality Act.
3. Categorisation within the sex binary is and remains the most useful and functional division relative to sporting performance.
4. This categorisation acknowledges the broad ranging and significant performance differences between the sexes. Hence, sports should retain sex categorisation, along with age and disability (and weight as appropriate) categories.
5. Evidence indicates it is fair and safe for transgender people to be included within the male category in most sports.
6. This is on the assumption that the transgender person will generally be using testosterone supplementation, for which a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) will be required in many sports. The NGBs and SGBs of contact, collision or combat sports in which size may impact safety considerations may consider further parameters to ensure safety of transgender people, including transgender men, non-binary and gender fluid people recorded female at birth.
7. Competitive fairness cannot be reconciled with self-identification into the female category in gender- affected sport.
8. This principle is in keeping with the provisions of the Equality Act, and acknowledges the average differences in strength, stamina, and physique between the sexes.
9. Self-identification through the ‘acceptance of people as they present’ may be appropriate in those sports which are not gender-affected. In this instance, for clarity and inclusion, these sports may appropriately be considered ‘mixed’ or ‘universal’ sports, in which everyone may participate and compete together.
10. Based upon current evidence, testosterone suppression is unlikely to guarantee fairness between transgender women and natal females in gender-affected sports:
11. a) Transgender women are on average likely to retain physical advantage in terms of physique, stamina, and strength. Such physical differences will also impact safety parameters in sports which are combat, collision or contact in nature.
12. b) Recent international policy on testosterone limits are set at a level below 5nmol/L in sports which choose to provide entry into female sports for transgender women. This is more appropriate than the 10nmol/L which is stipulated by the International Olympic Committee and which remains within the normal range for males. The current preliminary 12-month period is unlikely to result in the achievable minimisation of physical capacity.

1. ‘Case-by-case’ assessment is unlikely to be practical nor verifiable for entry into gender-affected sports.
2. NGBs may wish to consider the following when determining the appropriateness of this:

• It has not been scientifically validated as to whether any parameters of physical capacity or ability can be defined with a certain cut-off point at which someone is considered appropriately ‘female’ or appropriately ‘male’.
• Many tests related to sports performance are volitional. This means a person must try their very best to get an appropriate measurement. It is difficult to foresee how someone could be expected to provide maximal effort when a positive outcome for them relies on achieving a lesser result.
• Panel members are unlikely to be able to manage a situation in which their decisions can determine the suitability of some individuals, and not others. In the absence of a scientific rationale this places the panel members in a difficult situation.
• Case-by-case analysis may fall outside of the provisions of the Equality Act (whereby provision is for average advantage not individual advantage) and may be based on criteria which cannot be lawfully justified. Some transgender people will be included, some will be excluded through criteria outside of their own control.

1. Categorisation by sex is lawful, and hence the requirement to request information relating to birth sex is appropriate.
2. No individual is compelled to provide any information to a sports organisation. However, failure to provide such information would mean that person may not be able to compete in the category of their choice. Sports should provide options for those people who prefer not to advise of their sex or gender.
3. All data acquired by a sporting agency should be afforded appropriate protection under the Data Protection Act 2018.
4. There are likely to be times in which some transgender people cannot or choose not to be registered, either in the short or long-term, within sex binary categories.
5. It is imperative that gender-affected sports provide other opportunities for participation in these cases.
6. The ability of NGBs and SGBs to provide the best mix of sporting options for the broader community may be determined by whether a model is intended as physical activity and participation, or whether it represents ‘meaningful competition’.
7. An assessment of the merits of fairness and/or inclusion can be determined by the sports’ stakeholders to inform policy development, and whether this should be different at different levels of sport.

10. Achieving inclusion across all the strands of the Equality Act is complex and nuanced. It is recognised that many NGBs and SGBs may find the task of developing appropriate policy and protocols both difficult and time-consuming. It is important that views of a wide range of stakeholders are canvassed and that everyone is given an appropriate platform in which to contribute, and that different views and experiences are heard and respected. The Sports Councils are committed to facilitating education and decision making within sports in the UK.

Your belief that sex is real, and matters in some circumstances, is a protected belief following the Forstater case. Of course, it is not so much a “belief” as material reality, but we are where we are. Be sure to mention this at an early stage, as you cannot be treated less favourably for holding this belief.

Here is a good summary of the case:

https://www.doyleclayton.co.uk/media/filer_public/f6/f8/f6f8cafa-0edd-46b7-8d63-337042e65d94/8-septoct-ela-2022-final_copy.pdf

Yes I agree. I don't think this stuff will stop until it's called out as bullying.

I’d be wanting HR to explain why it’s gym policy that men and women can’t spar together if what you said was in any way incorrect. What is the reason?

Look at your gym's policy. If it doesn't explain the reasons for the policy, e-mail them and ask. As others have said, it's the 'obviously' that Woke-Bro has latched onto.

@justteanbiscuits I've been honest about the events that unfolded here in this thread. I want to get advice so there's no point in me hiding what really happened.

@Shelefttheweb I was in the union for years and left because of their stance on the trans/women's issue. I'm not in a union now. Even if I was in the sector's main union, I very much doubt I'd have decent support from them because of the issue at hand.

It’s just bonkers. I feel for you. I would go armed and prepared. Print out your gym’s policy if you can and do the same from the official site of MMA website. And just reiterate what you said. Spell it out clearly to your HR person and say ‘well it obvious isn’t it? You don’t see Tyson Fury knocking seven shades of shit out of Nicola Adams do you? It’s mad the world has come to this.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl Were you saying you couldn't come to a work event because of sparring? Does this cause someone else more work? I wonder if that's the real reason behind the complaint

I was saying I couldn't come to a work event because I had a prior arrangement. That prior arrangement was sparring, yes.
It doesn't cause someone else more work. The event was a working dinner type of thing.

The lady in HR said its likely to be a informal chat to identify why my comments were offensive

So has it already been decided that you are in the wrong?

Someone finding your comments offensive doesn't make them so!

I would also go to the meeting with a few questions to ask, you might not need to ask but you could start with

Id like to clarify

What is it that they deem to you have incorrectly said?

To be clear moving forward,

How do they believe you should have replied to the question asked by your colleague?

I would just explain that in the guidlelines for your sport mixed sparing isn't allowed - you were explaining j this

I think you need to be very careful about the route you get dragged into. I would not bring up trans athletes at all, unless they do, and then make it clear that your comment was not in relation to trans athletes.

I would bring up that the member of staff questioning you was male, and that as a woman, you found his line of questioning hostile/it made you feel uncomfortable.

Remember, this is a work case- it's not about who's opinion is "right" or about proving you are "right", it's about proving you haven't broken any work policies (and that someone else involved may have).

I would take someone else with you if you don't have a union rep.

All I can can from this OP is that you have a real asshole at work.

Don't apologise whatever you do. Explain that it's gym policy and it's obvious to you why that policy is in place, but maybe it's not obvious to other (idiot wankers) that don't actually do sparring. That however is not a reason for them to take offence at it.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl Absolutely, I wasn't intending to get into any discussion about anything unrelated to my work. I was just saying to a PP that segregating men and women isn't just about safety

"Media coverage has brought our attention to an inter-sex MMA bout that took place in Poland over the weekend," IMMAF CEO Densign White said.
"Although neither the promoter nor competitors have any association with IMMAF, as the international governing body for amateur mixed martial arts, I feel it is important that I state our position.
"IMMAF categorically disagrees with this intentionally scandalous, form of entertainment, which does not represent the sport of MMA or its values and puts women at risk."
White finished: "It is unacceptable that women and men should compete against each other in combat sports, essentially for reasons of safety but also fair play, and we in no way endorse this."

Inter-Sex Fights Are 'Intentionally Scandalous,' Says IMMAF Boss (insider.com)

Exactly so. While the HR lady was very blase, I feel as though its already been decided I was offensive and that the intention of the meeting is to make me apologise.

I may be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I suspect I'm right. Sigh.

So you are being called in because you dared to say you'd be uncomfortable sparring with a man?

I think you need someone to attend the meeting with you. Prior to that, ask for permission to record the meeting.

you need to focus on what was said. I'm worried they will ask "would you spar with a trans man". Do you have any lawyer friends?

I hope they won't find any grounds to put a bad mark against you, but sadly, in this twisted world, saying you won't spar with a man probably counts as being unfair in sone way. I am raging on your behalf.

The professional offence-takers will always claim to have found an 'offence'. So glad I'm retired and not having to face this gender/pronoun etc nonsense just to appease a minority. Hopefully there'll be a new bandwagon along soon for them to jump on.

I don't see why not. It's a competitive sport where people don't compete with the other gender. You were explaining that.

This

Yes. But how is this a concern ?

I'm the opposite. And still can't find how this was offensive!!