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Original poster

Said something 'offensive' about sex/gender at work, meeting on Wednesday. Hand hold and advice needed.

510 replies

Grubble · 03/04/2023 11:46

I've NC and I'm going to change some minor details to avoid outing.

I hope this is the right place to post - I'm after help about the work/employment issues I'm facing, rather than anything to do with the sex/gender debate.

Here goes:
I do MMA and am 'senior level'. The gym I train at is mostly men. Men and women don't spar together. There are only two other 'senior' women at my gym that I can spar with. If we find a class that two of us will be at, we'll both agree to definitely get to that class so we get chance to spar.

Last week, I declined an evening event at work because I'd booked a sparring session with one of these women.

A colleague asked me why I wasn't going to the event. I explained. As I was explaining I said "Obviously men and women don't spar with each other so when there's a chance for me to spar with one of the senior women, I take it".

A couple of other colleagues were standing around and heard the conversation. One of them said "Why obviously?" and I answered - men are bigger, men are heavier, men's bodies are shaped/composed differently, there's lots of holding/grabbing, men can't fully throw themselves into sparring with women so its a bit of a waste of time for them, and ultimately its just gym policy anyway.

Today I've received an email from HR asking me to attend a meeting on Wednesday about 'offensive comments' I made last week. I've followed HR up this morning and they've told me that my 'offensive comments' were about my explanation of men/women not sparring with each other.

The lady in HR said its likely to be a informal chat to identify why my comments were offensive and to 'find a way through' (her exact words). She said it didn't look like there'd be any question of formal disciplinary action.

So, basically I've been summoned to a bollocking.

I've worked here 9 years and have an impeccable record. I've never been told off or had any sort of HR intervention before. So I'm not sure what to do or what to expect. I'm not in a union.

I wonder if anyone has any advice on the situation. What should I expect on Wednesday? How should I handle it? I'm completely clueless. Thank you!

TLDR: Been summoned for a bollocking on Wednesday because I told colleagues why men/women don't spar together at my MMA gym. What should I do?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
xogossipgirlxo · 03/04/2023 13:10

FFS, stop the world, I want to get off 😩

Asthebellcurves · 03/04/2023 13:11

BookWorm45 · 03/04/2023 13:09

I'm so sorry you've had this, OP. The colleague who has complained - can it be true that they were really offended ? Or are they a person where you've had any problematic dealings with them over a separate work issue ?

I would suggest for your meeting:

  1. Take your union rep along with you
  2. If you don't have a union rep, ask a colleague to come with you (obvs not one of the colleagues who complained!)
  3. Ask HR if you can record the discussion. If they say no, then state to them that you will be writing down the precise questions / comments they make to you. Have a big pad and pen and do this for every item they raise.
  4. Don't react in the conversation. Tell HR that you will consider their behaviour (HR's) and the behaviour of the upset colleague, and that you will reply to them in writing. Don't reply until you've slept on it and got someone to read your draft first.

This is the best advice. Get the complaint in writing ahead of time, and I’d also suggest looking at the union in your workplace, as some seem to provide services to non members too.

Calmdown14 · 03/04/2023 13:12

Keep it about biology. This refers to a useful study about female concussion
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/07/24/538294331/female-athletes-are-closing-the-gender-gap-when-it-comes-to-concussions

There are physical reasons you want to spar with women. You are also perfectly entitled to seek a female only space. This is protected in the equalities act.

It's utterly ridiculous. Men and women don't compete against each other in the vast majority of sports. I don't understand why it's down to you to defend this position. It's a matter of fact.

Female Athletes Are Closing The Gender Gap When It Comes To Concussions

Gina "Danger" Mazany is a professional mixed martial arts athlete, and she's helping researchers learn more about head injuries and the female brain.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/07/24/538294331/female-athletes-are-closing-the-gender-gap-when-it-comes-to-concussions

MarshaBradyo · 03/04/2023 13:13

Good advice on here. Get it in writing don’t react in meeting

Original poster
Grubble · 03/04/2023 13:13

BookWorm45 · 03/04/2023 13:09

I'm so sorry you've had this, OP. The colleague who has complained - can it be true that they were really offended ? Or are they a person where you've had any problematic dealings with them over a separate work issue ?

I would suggest for your meeting:

  1. Take your union rep along with you
  2. If you don't have a union rep, ask a colleague to come with you (obvs not one of the colleagues who complained!)
  3. Ask HR if you can record the discussion. If they say no, then state to them that you will be writing down the precise questions / comments they make to you. Have a big pad and pen and do this for every item they raise.
  4. Don't react in the conversation. Tell HR that you will consider their behaviour (HR's) and the behaviour of the upset colleague, and that you will reply to them in writing. Don't reply until you've slept on it and got someone to read your draft first.

I wouldn't want to make assumptions but I am doubtful that this person (who I suspect has complained) is genuinely offended. I suspect its an opportunity for him to demonstrate just how right-on he is.

I've never had any problems with him at all. But I've never really dealt with him or worked closely.

He's a bit of a keyboard warrior, always rushing to the defense of the underdog without much actual substance.

OP posts:
Codlingmoths · 03/04/2023 13:15

I do think you should make a return complaint once you’ve had hr explain what it was about. You said something perfectly normal that is 100% supported by your gym, it’s rules and it’s members and someone who objects to that is basically telling you that you should go risk concussion, grievious harm or worse because they think that would be inclusive. If hr clarify they thoght it unacceptable of you to say men and women are different in ways that are significant for MMA, then I’d put in a complaint saying I should be able to express support pf policies in my gym and sport that keep me safe and I feel threatened and harassed at work that this staff member thinks it unacceptable of me to not get in a boxing match with a man. I don’t tell other people they should get hurt and injured in their sport to make me happy, it should not be ok for other people to express that about me.

Bloomingcancer · 03/04/2023 13:16

Crikey, didn’t want to read and run but can offer no advice, good luck OP, sock it to them and hope all is well 💐💐💐

GrammarTeacher · 03/04/2023 13:16

I just want to throw in here that I would certainly NOT define as GC as defined here and I can not see why there has been a complaint.

spiderplantparty · 03/04/2023 13:20

Is there a rule in MMA more generally about mixed sex sparring? Two of my DC do another martial art and they have mixed sex sparring up to about age 12 (mostly based on height) but not beyond that.

HermioneKipper · 03/04/2023 13:21

GrammarTeacher · 03/04/2023 13:16

I just want to throw in here that I would certainly NOT define as GC as defined here and I can not see why there has been a complaint.

Why not? Do you think males should in women’s single sex spaces eg male rapists in women’s prisons? And perform intimate care on sick or disabled women?

Do you think trans identifying males should compete in women’s sports?

Original poster
Grubble · 03/04/2023 13:21

spiderplantparty · 03/04/2023 13:20

Is there a rule in MMA more generally about mixed sex sparring? Two of my DC do another martial art and they have mixed sex sparring up to about age 12 (mostly based on height) but not beyond that.

I'm trying to find it now.

It's quite hard to find because I think no-one's ever really thought it needed saying before, its just so obvious!

OP posts:
Advicerequest · 03/04/2023 13:22
  1. listen to the HR person. Try and works out the "offence"
  2. dont be led down a trans path and if they lead you down that path be firm you said nothing relating to trans atheltes
  3. If your comments are offensive because they implied that women and men are biologically different suggest that as your work colleague is not a boxer that they are 1 given a copy of your gym guidelines 2 a copy of the world boxing federation guidelines which have different rules and categories for men and women. 3. A book explaining the biological different between men and women
  4. don't apologise. If anything the twat that reported you should apologise to you for time wasting!
thenightsky · 03/04/2023 13:23

justathought69 · 03/04/2023 12:49

Just say its obvious as you don't want to encourage violence against women by men, and then ask them if they advocate men hitting women.

They will shit their pants.

I would take this tack ^^

Greentree1 · 03/04/2023 13:24

The usual argument goes most men are stronger, than most women, but some women are stronger, than some men (so it can't be obvious that they can't compete together). But if you are talking about high end MMA then all the top men are very likely to be much stronger, heavier and better than all the top women. At higher level physically demanding sports men at the top of the sport do have an advantage over women at the top of the same sport (unless they are biological men identifying as women, maybe).

FoxTailGardens · 03/04/2023 13:24

ApolloandDaphne · 03/04/2023 11:52

How ridiculous. You just need to tell them you were explaining the gym policy and I rather suspect they will find nothing to quibble about.

Yes, this. Ridiculous.

RaininginDarling · 03/04/2023 13:25

BookWorm45 · 03/04/2023 13:09

I'm so sorry you've had this, OP. The colleague who has complained - can it be true that they were really offended ? Or are they a person where you've had any problematic dealings with them over a separate work issue ?

I would suggest for your meeting:

  1. Take your union rep along with you
  2. If you don't have a union rep, ask a colleague to come with you (obvs not one of the colleagues who complained!)
  3. Ask HR if you can record the discussion. If they say no, then state to them that you will be writing down the precise questions / comments they make to you. Have a big pad and pen and do this for every item they raise.
  4. Don't react in the conversation. Tell HR that you will consider their behaviour (HR's) and the behaviour of the upset colleague, and that you will reply to them in writing. Don't reply until you've slept on it and got someone to read your draft first.

Absolutely this.

So sorry you're being put through this by a bullying man on a witch hunt. 💐

Shelefttheweb · 03/04/2023 13:27

Grubble · 03/04/2023 12:08

HR is bizarre - I work in the public sector 😂

HR is really shit-hot on potential offenses around sex/gender. Weirdly so.

Show quote history

As someone with the protected belief that sex is immutable, I would ask HR to explain how their actions didn’t amount to harassment on the basis of a protected belief?

Figgygal · 03/04/2023 13:27

Well in HRs defence they just doing their job aren't they? Offence is taken not given the other party rightly or wrongly found it offensive HR are establishing what was said. Lots of conclusions being made about what the outcome will be.

I don't disagree what you've said is sensible but not everyone is these days seemingly

justteanbiscuits · 03/04/2023 13:27

I'm very on the ball with inclusion, exclusion, diversity etc etc. As a total left wing woke snowflake I often hear eyebrow raising comments - not worthy of a complaint - but enough for me to think "hmmm".

If you have given an accurate representation of what you said, there is nothing wrong in it what so ever, and I can only presume that it has been reported incorrectly. When it comes to, well, violent sports (I can't think of a better word!) it is obvious that there are physical difference. Pointing this out, and stating why it's unsafe for men and women to spar in MMA isn't cause for a complaint.

Don't turn it into a trans issue, because it isn't a trans issue. And don't let HR do that because it is not the subject being dealt with. It's the same as you wouldn't let a scrawny 13 year old spar with a heavy weight 30 year old.

pieceofpasta · 03/04/2023 13:27

I think you should make a counter complaint of bullying and harassment. I wouldn't even go to meeting until they can explain what you've done that is wrong. Tell them that you know the law and you have done nothing wrong. WORIADS

SoundsLikeALlama · 03/04/2023 13:28

god how infuriating!

ACynicalDad · 03/04/2023 13:28

I would make sure that once HR realise the other person is bat shit crazy there is no complaint on your file, and perhaps make a counter complaint about vexatious complaints.

Shelefttheweb · 03/04/2023 13:28

Given the stance taken by many unions on this topic…

pieceofpasta · 03/04/2023 13:29

Grubble · 03/04/2023 12:05

That's true kind of. But I wasn't just repeating the policy. I mean, I didn't lead with "Well, its gym policy that men and women don't spar because..."

It went more like: "Well, obviously men and women are different because.... Plus its gym policy anyway"

So I was clearly signalling that I believe/trust the gym policy which is grounded in biological sex differences.

Show quote history

It's like they are accusing you of thought crime. Very Orwellian. This is scary stuff.

Curiosity101 · 03/04/2023 13:29

To be fair... you're not necessarily in trouble.

The lady in HR said its likely to be a informal chat to identify why my comments were offensive and to 'find a way through' (her exact words). She said it didn't look like there'd be any question of formal disciplinary action.

They've had a complaint and they're following it up, doesn't mean you've done anything wrong, it'll be a standard procedure to go through certain steps whenever a complaint it made. Sounds like a bit of a misunderstanding to me. I expect that once you explain the context HR file it away in whatever drawer they have to file it away in with no intention of ever doing anything with it. But can then let the person that complained know that it has been 'dealt with'. They may also have advice on how to avoid offending in future, again... doesn't mean you did anything wrong, but there will be certain boxes to tick.

If it progresses to a formal disciplinary - that'd be when they're saying you've done something wrong.