Said something 'offensive' about sex/gender at work, meeting on Wednesday. Hand hold and advice needed.

[Grubble]

I've NC and I'm going to change some minor details to avoid outing.

I hope this is the right place to post - I'm after help about the work/employment issues I'm facing, rather than anything to do with the sex/gender debate.

Here goes:
I do MMA and am 'senior level'. The gym I train at is mostly men. Men and women don't spar together. There are only two other 'senior' women at my gym that I can spar with. If we find a class that two of us will be at, we'll both agree to definitely get to that class so we get chance to spar.

Last week, I declined an evening event at work because I'd booked a sparring session with one of these women.

A colleague asked me why I wasn't going to the event. I explained. As I was explaining I said "Obviously men and women don't spar with each other so when there's a chance for me to spar with one of the senior women, I take it".

A couple of other colleagues were standing around and heard the conversation. One of them said "Why obviously?" and I answered - men are bigger, men are heavier, men's bodies are shaped/composed differently, there's lots of holding/grabbing, men can't fully throw themselves into sparring with women so its a bit of a waste of time for them, and ultimately its just gym policy anyway.

Today I've received an email from HR asking me to attend a meeting on Wednesday about 'offensive comments' I made last week. I've followed HR up this morning and they've told me that my 'offensive comments' were about my explanation of men/women not sparring with each other.

The lady in HR said its likely to be a informal chat to identify why my comments were offensive and to 'find a way through' (her exact words). She said it didn't look like there'd be any question of formal disciplinary action.

So, basically I've been summoned to a bollocking.

I've worked here 9 years and have an impeccable record. I've never been told off or had any sort of HR intervention before. So I'm not sure what to do or what to expect. I'm not in a union.

I wonder if anyone has any advice on the situation. What should I expect on Wednesday? How should I handle it? I'm completely clueless. Thank you!

TLDR: Been summoned for a bollocking on Wednesday because I told colleagues why men/women don't spar together at my MMA gym. What should I do?

I've taken time to read the full thread. I regard myself as a feminist; in the past I've been called a skirt wearing feminist, whatever one of those is.

There is nothing offensive here.

Likewise women and men footballers do not line up alongside each other. There are lots of sports where the 2 sexes/genders (call it what you like) do not mix.

My instinct in these kind of situations is to not let anything 'informal' happen but instead insist on it all being in writing and following policy. E.g. hear out HR on Wednesday and then ask them to give you time to reflect on the conversation and to please put into writing their key points for your consideration and outline what policy the conversation is happening under so you can respond appropriately. It's an entirely reasonable request, especially as you're the one pushing to do it 'by the book'. Then any response you give is in writing, or any conversation summarised by email after. Because either 1.they are misrepresenting what you said (and you want to be able to refute that in writing) or 2. the complaint won't align with either company policy or legislation (and you'll want to be able to point that out in writing). You will also be able to ask questions for them to clarify the issue, he complaint, the offensive remarks, etc. all in writing.

Sympathies OP.
Just as others have said, they're on a fishing expedition. The advice is always to listen and record - as get that notebook out if you've nobody with you and literally write down every question. Ask for clarification if the question isn't clear. Volunteer nothing - let them do the running.
Before it starts ask whether this is an investigation? Ask what stage it is at and ask for the policy and procedures that they're following.
Ask for copies of the policy and the procedures.

Reserve the right to respond when you've had a chance to consider their questions and sought further advice.

Try not to be defensive but make them feed back to you what they're alleging:
"What are you alleging that I said ? What words / phrases are you alleging that I've said? What policy are you alleging that I've breached?" etc

Turn it round on them and see it as your fishing expedition.

And as this might be identifiable, now you've had so much support you could always ask for this to be deleted? (but come back and tell us how it went).

As others have said, say as little as possible. If the trans issue comes up, be prepared for the questions you might be asked - what will you say if asked 'do you believe that transwomen are women'?

I used to do karate for some years. I'd happily spar with my 2nd Dan male instructor because, as you point out, he could control himself and show me where I was leaving myself open without me getting seriously hurt.

That is a completely different thing to sparring with a peer. I'm AMAZED you think there's no difference in strength between men and women. Really???

It seems like you're talking about technical sparring which is different from proper sparring.

Technical sparring is about kind of mimicking a real fight to hone and perfect your skills. We do mixed technical sparring - mixed sex, mixed age, mixed ability, mixed weight. In technical sparring you generally have one person who's looking to benefit more than the other.

But I was talking about proper sparring which is basically just having a fight 😅An 8st woman clearly can't be paired with a 14st man for this type of sparring. But they might be paired for technical sparring if there aren't better match-ups around that day.

I'm struggling to see what any of this has to do with your employer, who is not the gym.

I presume public sector because no private sector employer would be paying HR staff to deal with things that did not occur at work.

He's a bit of a keyboard warrior, always rushing to the defense of the underdog without much actual substance.

I'm wondering if he'd be quite so keen to leap to the defence of someone if it actually involved sparring with the MMA's equivalent of Mike Tyson. I'm glad you've had good advice here OP - the whole situation with this debate is getting absolutely ridiculous.

These fucking imbeciles believe this shit that they spout though.

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly posters are to run down HR.

HR have received a complaint from an employee about another employee. HR are correctly asking OP to meet and explain what happened.

Once HR have both peoples version of events they can then decide what to do.

HR are not psychic, mind readers, time travellers etc. so they can’t know what happened unless both parties tell them.

HRs job is to minimise risk for the business, part of that is understanding legislation and case law. I would be staggered in the public sector they were not aware of Maya’s EAT and the risk of not respecting the OPs views.

@Grubble you have had some good advice and some poor advice.

• let HR explain the situation
• use the “Cs” and open questions what did I say that was offensive
• don’t take a note taker or ask to record
• HR would tell you if you had a right to be accompanied.
• EA2010 pc includes gender critical beliefs
• GRA 2007 allows sports to restrict to one sex on safety grounds.
• No one has a right not to be offended. In a work place there are expected standards of behaviour and you have in no way breached those.

And again.

As well as www.boysvswomen.com

You will be fine. It’s a sport. Sports are always segregated by sex. You were only stating the generally accepted policy because you were directly asked. You weren’t stating any opinion whatsoever regarding the policy.

Id just go in with rabbit in headlights innocence and say the above.

So the OP is possibly being held accountable by her work because the policies of a sports club that she attends in her own time are supposedly offensive to a colleague?

I mean, WTAF?

No a shit stirring colleague has complained to HR that the OP has made offensive comments in work.

OP - just wanted to add my support for you. This is bonkers!

The complaining colleague is a deeply sad little man who really needs to find better things to do with his time.

Another wanting to add support for OP.

If they query you too much I'd say are they happy denying your lived experience as a woman and the difference between being hit by a man vs a woman.

I would actually threaten them that you will seek further advice on the matter, they actually owe you an apology for raising this, 've never read anything so pathetic. I'm with you OP.

I'm ducking out for now but will update on Wednesday once the meeting is done.

Thanks for all of your advice. I feel so much stronger and prepared.

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly posters are to run down HR

HR have received a complaint from an employee about another employee. HR are correctly asking OP to meet and explain what happened.

But that is not the only thing that HR said. HR said the purpose was "to identify why my comments were offensive" so HR seem to have incorrectly presupposed that the OP said something offensive.

Excuse my ignorance but what is sparring?!

Fighting

Ah right ok! I'm with you! Yeah we tended to join a few clubs together to do those and you'd be paired with same gender, same general weight band and experience. I thought that's all you did.
100% on board with you and honestly I'd just put it on that the other person clearly doesn't understand MMA and when has anyone ever seen a man vs woman professional fight.

Google why the boxing authorities don't let Men beat Women up and call it professional sport. Print it and take it into the meeting, hand it over and look at them like this 🤨

@Pixiedust1234
No, as I was trying to say, HR have no skin in the game here, we can't 'punish people', we just have to comply with the organisational policies and advise managers accordingly.

Half the complaints that come in, I can help the complainant to resolve it themselves without further manager or HR intervention. But depending on what's been said we often have to at least enquire into the allegation, potentially set up a hearing and find an investigator (ideally not from HR). If right from the start someone (complainant or in this case OP) ask for things to be recorded in my experience it ends up in investigation quicker because it feels adversarial and implies there might be more to the story. I've worked in some very highly unionised environments (i.e. ones who've been out on strike a lot lately) and even the TU reps generally agreed that the first fact finding meeting about a complaint should and could be as non-confrontational as possible. I have however agreed to recording where there is a disability reason for example.

All the people criticising HR, calling us horrible names, saying we aren't busy enough etc. What would you think if you genuinely had a problem at work, were offended by something said or done to you and reported it and HR laughed it off because they made the judgement it wasn't worthy of at the least, an informal chat with the alleged offender? Because it's that sort of approach that has meant women's complaints for years haven't been taken seriously - "oh it was just banter", don't be so over sensitive" "you can't take a joke", you should've been flattered love". I'd rather have to listen to every complaint no matter how small it might appear, than brush someone off. (OK, not every one as that's overkill but YSWIM). Yes there are the odd repeat complainers and the serially offended and ones out to get someone else in trouble, but you get to spot those.

Not everything goes formal. In fact most doesn't. I do know how it feels - I've had a complaint against me from an HR team member. I had to put my side of the situation to a senior manager and there was always a chance it might go more formal. So I know it's not pleasant but at no time did I feel it wasn't reasonable to have to explain myself.

OP can have the conversation and then see what happens. If at that point she needs a companion to attend or to ask for a recorded meeting she can, but unless her work environment is seriously dysfunctional and she knows something we don't, I'd take HR at their word and have the informal discussion as offered.