Said something 'offensive' about sex/gender at work, meeting on Wednesday. Hand hold and advice needed.

[Grubble]

I've NC and I'm going to change some minor details to avoid outing.

I hope this is the right place to post - I'm after help about the work/employment issues I'm facing, rather than anything to do with the sex/gender debate.

Here goes:
I do MMA and am 'senior level'. The gym I train at is mostly men. Men and women don't spar together. There are only two other 'senior' women at my gym that I can spar with. If we find a class that two of us will be at, we'll both agree to definitely get to that class so we get chance to spar.

Last week, I declined an evening event at work because I'd booked a sparring session with one of these women.

A colleague asked me why I wasn't going to the event. I explained. As I was explaining I said "Obviously men and women don't spar with each other so when there's a chance for me to spar with one of the senior women, I take it".

A couple of other colleagues were standing around and heard the conversation. One of them said "Why obviously?" and I answered - men are bigger, men are heavier, men's bodies are shaped/composed differently, there's lots of holding/grabbing, men can't fully throw themselves into sparring with women so its a bit of a waste of time for them, and ultimately its just gym policy anyway.

Today I've received an email from HR asking me to attend a meeting on Wednesday about 'offensive comments' I made last week. I've followed HR up this morning and they've told me that my 'offensive comments' were about my explanation of men/women not sparring with each other.

The lady in HR said its likely to be a informal chat to identify why my comments were offensive and to 'find a way through' (her exact words). She said it didn't look like there'd be any question of formal disciplinary action.

So, basically I've been summoned to a bollocking.

I've worked here 9 years and have an impeccable record. I've never been told off or had any sort of HR intervention before. So I'm not sure what to do or what to expect. I'm not in a union.

I wonder if anyone has any advice on the situation. What should I expect on Wednesday? How should I handle it? I'm completely clueless. Thank you!

TLDR: Been summoned for a bollocking on Wednesday because I told colleagues why men/women don't spar together at my MMA gym. What should I do?

YABU all HR are doing is asking for OPs version of events. They are following best practice which is to not jump to conclusions.

They do. Tamikka Brents had her orbital bone broken fighting against a male in a professional fight.

Wishing you well with this waste of time, OP.

I think you’re doing the right thing by following advice by keeping it factual that it’s the gym’s policy for same sex sparring partners. Anything about transwomen, puzzled look and a “no, my sparring partner is a biological woman”. If they push on anything, state you’re being made to feel uncomfortable and sexualized by the complainant’s interest in picturing you fighting. And yes, record everything.

Best of luck . Hope you can keep calm , taking notes before you answer helps , because I must admit if I was you I would be fuming 😡 it’s absolutely ridiculous.

to me it sounds like someone involved in the discussion is out to stir trouble and has made a mountain out of a molehill to get you in trouble.

i could be completely wrong. It just reminds me of the he said she said nonsense that went on at secondary school.

What? My son does MMA. I boxed for a short while with him and we dparred together. It was completely for my benefit, as he's bigger and stronger. He would not show me any of his grapling moves because 'its just not the done thing'...ie mixing genders. Your explanation was perfectly acceptable. So now, how to handle this...
Firstly, everything in writing. Email HR asking for confirmation of said 'invite' and ask exactly what the meeting is for.
Practice your responses. Seriously. Say as little as possible. Do not put your case across, just answer relavent questions. Research and print off any Rules from gym, awarding bodies etc (for your reference)
Continually refer to colleague 'feeling offended' rather than 'being offended', definitely do not say you offended. Maybe include that in your email for example "I understand this is to discuss a conversation I had at work where another colleague FELT OFFENDED by something that was said.
DO NOT be fobbed off with 'well they'll be no formal action, just be mindful of what you say in future' or 'We need to consider others feelings but on this occasion they'll be no further action"...
Ask 'Is there anything to answer to? Have I broken any rules?
Follow up with 'Whilst I'm disappointed that Wokey felt offended I'm pleased to know that there is no case to answer and that they're allogations of sexist/inappropriate comments have been disproved.

I'm raging for you

As others have said keep it factual about what you said. I'd be tempted to totally misinterpret the purpose of the meeting and say 'I didn't realise the complainant was into MMA sparring with women because at my club we aren't allowed to do that, maybe there's different rules at his club? `

Following

I get what you're saying @LemonGelato but considering that HR represent the interests of the company and not the OP, OP is right to be cautious. Especially as she is potentially subject to a complaint against her for a very charged topic that she may legitimately feel the company won't be neutral on. If it was an informal chat about two colleagues not getting on - fine. But a potential complaint of offensive behaviour where she suspects the complainant is a shit-stirrer who will use all the right words - I'd be at a minimum cautious if not (politely and professionally) defensive from the off.

Yes but if they had been told the conversation they could have quashed the complaint immediately. Because how can anyone be offended by a fact that actually does not affect them and was not even aimed at them . We all at work will now be sitting in silence because we can’t talk about anything anymore .

Keep notes of everything, forward to your personal email.
Take a pen and pad, write down what they say- even if you have to make them wait- then write down your answer.

My old hr manager would try and intimidate by doing this. They might ask for a record of what you are writing. Don't use a work pad and pen. Definitely ask for their notes and forward to private email.

Confirm this will not be on your record. If they can't promise, make sure it's on the complaint persons too!

It sounds bonkers, no doubt they are just following up, but they will have to speak to the person who raised it. Don't apologise though, even for saying obviously. Point out how stressful this is, to be accused of something when merely stating your gym rules which asked in detail by x.

Is your manager attending with you? Not to speak but just safety in numbers.

How can HR know the conversation without getting OPs side of the story? It seems that a bystander who overheard snippets complained- they didn’t even hear the whole conversation.

If anyone is denying that men and women are different then they are denying that anyone can transition (either physically or socially - because there would be no difference before and after). Which is erasing trans people.

But I wouldn't give them anything, only answer what you're asked and if they try to bring trans into it ask for total clarification on terms they use (trans, men, women, etc) before you respond.

@Unsure33 unless you were present when the colleague made their complaint to HR you cannot possibly know what they said.

I have lost count of the times an employee or manager has spoken to me about an issue and once I had spoken to the other party it was clear the original complainant had been economical with the truth.

I would answer NO questions on transgender at all! It is irrelevant and OP isn’t facing the Spanish Inquisition or Thought Police. She need only say that she was directly asked why men & women do not spar at her MMA club and merely repeated the standard policy of most sports organisations and her gym with the reasons they gave for said policy.

HR is questioning WHAT she SAID and WHY. Not what she thinks or her beliefs. Any question on sex, gender, beliefs, I would be saying “I don’t see how that is relevant to the matter at hand and I decline to comment” or similar.

@allmyliesaretrue Ah yes you're right, it might all under a Dignity at Work type policy too, depends on the organisation. Worth OP asking about that. (I should add, not all organisations have the full suite of every policy & procedure possible, some of them just muddle on with the absolute basics in place, and barely those in some cases).

You're right re the option of informal vs formal for the complainant. Again the exact approach depends on organisational culture to some extent. In my world if OP has been asked to an informal chat HR will have at least the consent of the complainant at this stage to share that with her. Doesn't mean it can't still be resolved informally. Of course complainant may already have rejected that option and this is a fact find to start the more formal process - we don't know and nor does OP.

As for why HR is involved at this stage, it depends on company culture, procedures, size of HR team vs size of workforce, all sorts of variables. Certainly HR shouldn't be judge and juror But I've worked in environments with very rigid roles and responsibilities for dealing with complaints, others much more flexible. In my current workplace it would simply be expected HR would have this initial meeting, and it's pointless fighting that prevailing view right now - change will be evolutionary not revolutionary. We do insist on proper manager involvement further on though. In a previous job (Civil Service) managers just accepted their role and got on with it. In another place I was in, managers would have devolved everything to HR if we'd let them but like your current job we forced them to do it.

As for bollocking, well yes I wonder why any of us work in HR these days, get it from all sides at work and even on an anonymous forum.

As for the trans issues it's a nightmare now, trying to accommodate all the competing demands (impossible) and reconciling things with your own personal views as well and not saying something that will get me into the same boat OP is in.

The World Boxing Council has said women and men can't compete against each other. https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boxing-is-right-to-stop-men-fighting-women/

allmyliesaretrue This is amazing advice, thank you! I'm going to keep it handy for if/when I ever get in trouble about anything :)
Mumsnetters are awesome.

Ooohhh... would the largest bloke at the gym come and support you in the meeting.

HR might "understand" the policy better if they aee the size difference...

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly posters are to run down HR.

HR have received a complaint from an employee about another employee. HR are correctly asking OP to meet and explain what happened.
. . .
HRs job is to minimise risk for the business, part of that is understanding legislation and case law. I would be staggered in the public sector they were not aware of Maya’s EAT and the risk of not respecting the OPs views.

It's probably based on years of experience of HR employees. HR are employed by the business. Their job as you say is to minimise risks for the business. In other words, protect the business.

It shouldn't but in practice this includes getting rid of /marginalising/discrediting employees who are giving the business trouble. In the modern world, if they fear they could be the wrong end of a big publicity campaign from a disgruntled employee about how they as an employer are not woke enough or are transphobe, the path of least resistence is to pay off and get rid of the troublesome element.

You say you'd be staggered if they weren't aware of case law but even if they are aware, it doesn't mean HR don't and routinely do support action that is unlawful or borderline unlawful if the outcome isbetter for the business. It's clearly the case that even unlawful dismissal doesn't always lead to Employment Tribunal proceedings because many people are too frightened, too apathetic or not properly assisted to even try.

I have seen so SO many cases of appalling behaviour and advice from HR departments that nothing surprises me and I have a very dim view of HR generally. I'm sure like anything there are some people who are really good at their job but they seem few and far between. It is field from what I have seen that is peopled with low academic intelligence, low emotional intelligence individuals who have an over-inflated idea of their own ability who frequently make a situation worse for an employee than it ever needed to be and chuck petrol on an interaction that could easily have been calmed down with a bit of light touch common sense. Seen it again and again and again.

It is getting ridiculous. U cannot state a fact anymore.

Sport England think the sane re men and women.competing together

You seem worried about the 'obviously...' part of your comment. I imagine that if your colleague could see your male MMA peers, he'd also realise it was really obvious why you couldn't effectively fight them.

@WigsNGowns ”It is field from what I have seen that is peopled with low academic intelligence, low emotional intelligence individuals who have an over-inflated idea of their own ability who frequently make a situation worse for an employee than it ever needed to be and chuck petrol on an interaction that could easily have been calmed down with a bit of light touch common sense. Seen it again and again and again.”

Wow, that character assassination is not one I recognise for most people in my profession. I spent most of my career digging senior managers out of the mess they got themselves into for not following HR advice. HR are frequently ignored until it goes wrong and are then unfairly blamed.

Is he quite unphysical himself and seeing it from that point of view? My daughter weightlifts and trains quite hard. My son is currently a similar size to her and doesn't lift, so possibly thinks along similar lines: strong women could compete fairly against small men. But these are unlikely to be weedy little chaps, I take it.