Does anyone manage someone with autism? Looking for advice.

[MadameFantabulosa]

I manage someone who says they are “probably” autistic, but no formal diagnosis. They are quite quirky, bright and good at their job, but absolutely do not “get” social cues. For example they will drone on for hours about a niche subject that is only of interest to them, and don’t get that people are bored. They don’t have “two way conversations” - it’s a monologue, so the other person can’t get a word in edgewise and they never ask questions to get a two way flow. At social functions (we go to a lot of social functions, some quite formal), they don’t interact with other people, and don’t seem to understand when the event is over and they have to leave - eg pouring more drinks when everyone else has gone.

This behaviour will almost certainly hold them back in their career. But how to approach it? Via OH or HR? I don’t feel equipped for the conversation.

[quote MadameFantabulosa]@disorganisedasalways yes it will hold them back. At the next level there is a lot more networking and they will be expected to host dinners and events themselves. It’s a big part of the job.[/quote]

As an autistic person this would be my worst nightmare. I used to hide in the toilets during networking events earlier in my career due to overwhelming anxiety.

It may well be that this person would be better suited in a different job in a different field even bit a good manager will want to get the best out of their employee and want them to be happy in their work so they can give of their best.

Autistic people can be brilliantly talented but we're not universally good at everything even with support, need to play to our strengths and take on board training to help with our weaknesses. I couldn't work in this environment without burning out under crippling stress.

If I were this person’s manager I would make it VERY clear to colleagues I had this person’s back.

Have you tried asking the person: “if you’re having a chat with someone and they need to end the conversation and get on with something - what’s the best way for them to communicate that to you?”

@SausagePourHomme if you were my employee, how would you want to be helped to do your job more effectively and get promoted?

@Clarice99 how else would you describe an hour long monologue, if not as “droning on”? My mother also drones on, but I can butt in with her!

@Hercisback

The person doesn't have a diagnosis of autism (yet). Therefore this thread could be written without any reference to autism and the advice given (in most cases) is good.

There are jobs and parts of jobs that require certain skills and characteristics. It's OK to need to train people in the requirements of the job. It happens all the time in my job.

I don't read this thread as being offensive towards people with autism. Lots of jobs require you to be a different version of your 'true self'. I'm a teacher and swear like a trooper. I can't do that in front of a class. I also can't discuss my weekend antics with students, or spend half an hour chatting with them when they should be learning. Much as I'd like to sometimes.

Funnily enough I was just about to write about someone who swears a lot will have to change their behaviour for example in a classroom or hospital ward.

Everyone has to adapt their social behaviours to the environment. It's life. It's not wrong to expect that of society.

What is wrong - IMO - would be to not support someone who's disability means they struggle to do this or don't understand why they should do this.

I don't believe it's ableist to support someone to get a much better job by supporting them to gain the skills they need to do it.

The issue would be if they only supported ND colleagues and turned a blind eye to behaviours from NT colleagues that is the same and promoted them despite them also lacking some of the communication skills required for a job role.

In actual fact if the employee who is ND was turned down for promotion because they didn't have a specific skill (for example communication for networking) and they hadn't been supported through their appraisals when the need was recognised they have a case against the company. If they been supported as any colleague would be to gain the skills for promotion but weren't the best candidate they'd be unlikely to be able to prove it's due to autism.

It's very complex and I agree with those saying we need to discuss this openly and calmly rather than defensively to be able to improve the future for those with autism in employment.

@clarice99

Did you miss the person doesn't have a diagnosis (yet) therefore no protection.

It's limiting to assume that all people with autism are the same as you. Plenty of people will and have improved their communication skills after coaching and feedback. This happens to non autistic people too.

I think one of the points is that someone who’s autistic can’t just necessary stop certain behaviours because they’ve been told others don’t like it. If I go round work whistling and someone tells me it’s annoying, I’ll try to shut up and it won’t be very hard for me to do so because it’s not a result of my neurotype. If my son is autistic and stares at the floor a lot, being told to look up isn’t something he can necessarily act on in the same easy way. I think that’s what’s leading to the comparisons with “telling people to be less blind” etc.

Excellently put @itsgettingweird

@Clarice99

I hope this doesn’t offend anybody, but we all have to make changes to our natural personalities at work.

I’m naturally very outgoing and chatty and have to remind myself to rein it in a bit. My voice is quite loud so I make an effort to keep it to a normal level so as not to annoy people.

I don’t see why autism changes this?

@Organictangerine

Is your natural personality, chatty/loud, a protected characteristic of the Equalities Act 2010?

A protected characteristic is not a reason to be allowed to behave how you like. That's not how the equality act works.

You can't have an autistic teacher f ing and jeffing in a primary school classroom and just say "oh well - they are autistic".

There will always be expectations of behaviours.

How do you know if the person can or can't stop the behaviour without talking to them?

Ignoring it pretty much guarantees no promotion or progression.

@JohnMcCainsDeathStare

WildBLueandDitsy

I think this is the wrong thread.

No, I posted in the right thread. If you don't like my posts feel free to not read them, my username is at the top of each one.

I've worked with ND people and although NT myself, I hate networking! Avoid it like the plague..

If someone tells me they are ND I sit down with them and ask them to tell me about it. I ask how I can make accommodations for them. I ask them if they need anything. We have a Disability staff network group and there's an autistic woman who is very active within that group, so I usually signpost to her.

I find that ND people are nit really much different they just approach things in a different way or instructions have to be phrased differently that's all. If other employees think the person is "weird" then they need to go on a training course about equality and inclusion. There is no excuse, there is plenty of information online about neurodiversity (including this platform) and there are many organisations who can give advice. It's society's problem that they think a ND person is annoying or weird not the person themselves.

I think OP needs to try and change the ablist culture of her team, tbh.

My understanding is it’s NOT the same as repressing natural chattiness or not swearing. Assuming it is is a bit ableist and does really minimise the struggle ND people face.

It’s more like being forced to use your left hand when you’re right handed. You can do it, but it takes real concentration and time and doing it that way massively affects how much you can achieve, and it’s quality, and how much EFFORT it takes you. In time, you can get good at it, if you’re given enough space to be bad at it at first, and you might get as good as an innate left handed person. But, you’re starting from a baseline other people are not. It is not nearly as simple as NT people think. If it was, it wouldn’t be a disability, just a quirk!

I have ADHD and my employer arranged for an outside company, who specialises in neurodiversity in the workplace, to assist with issues I have such as time management, social skills, organisation skills etc.

As a neurodiverse person, I actually think you sound supportive and understanding.

So, assuming this person is autistic, and that this sort of networking is required, some changes are going to have to be made. Just saying someone is ableist (especially when they’ve asked for help) isn’t going to get anyone anywhere. Reasonable adjustments must be made. some by a team, some by coaching the person and some by management.

Joan needs to be made aware that she can interrupt a monologue, ask for specific information on the objectives of a discussion and to not judge the person on their lack of small talk. People (especially women) often feel this is rude, and need strategies to help them.

The rest of the team need inclusion training and a bit of compassion. They don’t have to like it.

I don’t understand the social stuff, and how it ties in with a job. But if it does, there’s no reason why someone shouldn’t be coached in it, IF they get that it’s important to move up, they want to move up and they can change it. I don’t see how you could find out if you don’t try, but it shouldn’t be the whole solution. Maybe hosting an event as a pair, or having clearer timescales.

But, this can’t be done within a diagnosis. It seems to be the discussion here should be whether the conversation about initiating a diagnosis is appropriate between a manager and an employee. A person in a wheelchair is not going around not knowing they can’t climb stairs. But a person with autism can definitely not know they don’t communicate well, and be extra-disadvantaged by not knowing. Is it a manager’s place to bring it up? If not, whose is it? If they don’t and the person is disadvantaged by not knowing, is that discriminatory? And how else can they proceed.

I think the right thing must be to bring it up - it can’t be fair to ignore it - But I don’t know how.

One thing that stands out from this thread is the presumption if one person with autism can mask well then all people with autism can. In reality autism varies so much, my ds is aware that his autism makes him different but genuinely doesn’t understand why in most scenarios even when it’s explained, he finds stopping many behaviours that come naturally to him (running monologue for example) distressing. It absolutely cannot be compared to being overly chatty, having a loud voice or other personality traits

This sounds really tough. I can understand why some ND posters find the idea of the colleague requiring ‘coaching’ to be offensive or insulting.

However, in my personal opinion OP is not being ableist but in fact is trying her best to be supportive and ensure the colleague is given the same opportunities to progress as others. If she was ableist she would surely be joining in with others mocking the ‘droning on’ conversations, trying to get rid of the colleague, writing them off as unfit for the job or, as she said, ticking the box to say not suitable for promotion. She’s been clear that the ability to ‘network’ (I hate that word!) and build relationships is crucial to the job and that the colleague is struggling with that, even if they’re not aware of it themselves. It’s not something OP has decided to pick on but rather something others are noticing and by the sounds of it talking about the employee behind their back.

The fact OP doesn’t want them to end up overlooked for promotion / be dismissed as the ‘problem employee’ IMO shows that she is a compassionate manager, even if she is approaching it a little clumsily

One thing that stands out from this thread is the presumption if one person with autism can mask well then all people with autism can.

...Not just 'can', but that the prevailing 'workplace-ready' mould presumes they all 'should'.

The OP confuses me. The person is 'good at their job' (so the appraisals shouldn't be critical) but their social behaviours then mean they aren't. They won't progress because those behaviours stand out as enough of a mismatch to appear embarrassing and weird to the team and the manager, though seemingly not to the employee. It all sounds like a bit of a code of behaviour where you are expecting the one who stands out to 'get the memo' and conform, then everything will be ok, because it will be easier when those with superior capabilities don't have to experience other approaches so often. It's even more interesting when people who aren't neurodiverse are tasked with googling some stuff and writing the company behaviour policy on accommodating neurodiversity, something that has had me mentally pounding my head on my desk before now (late-diagnosed and really wanting to feel comfortable and valued at work; achieved at times, not at others).

Theres some really terrible comments on this thread aimed at someone who is trying to help another employee. Fact is, like it or not, getting in in your career requires an ability to network and communicate with others in an effective way. If you cant do that you will not get on. Its pointless saying others should be more tolerant because at the end if the day this will stop his career at some point. OP i think its worth having an honest conversation with him. Certainly one of my colleagues gives me a trigger word if i am droning on. Its very subtle but does the trick. I think if he wants to progress he will understand and appreciate the feedback

@Ormally behaviour is a big a part if a job as your technical ability to do the task. He will be overlooked for promotion unless he can master both

@Ormally they are good at the part of their job that doesn’t require interaction with others. So producing reports, spreadsheets etc, and analysis (although they struggle to work under pressure and a short deadline will often produce a “brain dump” of everything they know, rather than something concise and analytical). So it is really a job of two halves, and you need to be good at both to progress.

I mean let's face it, work is pretty shit for lots of people and I've given up now on finding a job where I feel happy and supported. Just not to have massive panic attacks about it would be a start.

If I had a manager asking for advice on how best to support me, I would love that. They're usually working out how to manage me out or to deny me reasonable adjustments because 'we all struggle'.

You can't go to OH or HR without the individuals consent due to GDPR. It's not up to you who to discuss the impairment with.

It's also not for you to diagnose them. Only a court can say if someone meets the legal definition of disability - not even a doctor can (hence why so many doctors refused to give mask exemption letters and shops got sued by disabled people for requesting one)

Why not start by getting some disability awareness training from a charity like scope or Leonard Cheshire etc

The law also says it's the employers duty to make adjustments not the employees duty to conform. So that attitude is a definite breach of the law for someone who wants to help them progress. Any training you go on shouldn't just be on autism, you'd also need awareness of the law, adjustments and appropriate language.

I'm only on page two, but anyone can see the OP comes from a place of kindness.
She could just allow her employee to carry on making a complete balls up of their career instead.
Iike it or not, the world is not accepting of everyone.
If you don't fit in you'll struggle. Being arseholes to the op won't change this.
She is asking for advice to help this person progress fgs.